Scoutmaster Conference - Is this the right way?

[Sentinel947]

Stosh, when you put it that way, I think we agree more than we disagree. I do hear some of the "I need Eagle for college Application" "take it to the bank" talk. I think that comes from parents that don't understand what the goal of the program is. That and to be honest, Eagle isn't worth that much in the outside world, it's the worth it has to the individual who earned it. I value my Eagle highly, but not because of the requirements, but because of what I did as a Scout and what I continue to do as an ASM gives it meaning.

 

To anybody who cares to read: I suppose my approach to Scoutmaster's Conferences and Eagle is one and the same. Scouts do the advancement and are signed off when completed. In my mind that's the only test needed. I don't feel like I need to protect the integrity of the advancement process other than verifying that book is signed. Another poster compared the Scout skills to high school classes and the "Use it or lose it" concept. I think retesting in Scoutmaster's conferences encourages Scouts to brush up their skills when they need to pass a Scoutmaster's conference, but if they don't need the skills in their normal Scouting activities they will forget the skills till they need them for another SMC. So in my troop I'm focusing on the Patrol Method, which I think will encourage the scouts to lead, be more involved and hopefully in due time, retain their skills better.

 

When I was a Scout, my troop was a retesting during SMC troop. Some of the skills (knots in particular) were something I had to relearn for each Scoutmaster's conference, but never used in actual camping trips, so I never retained them. Now as an Assistant Scoutmaster in the same troop (which still retests during SMC's) I think for most of my Scouts the dynamic is in play. So rather than retest and lament at why my Scouts don't retain their skills, I want to attack the root of the problem, that our Troop program doesn't challenge the Scouts to use some of their skills.They won't upkeep skills they don't think are useful or necessary. I can't say that for every troop, but I believe that to be the case with my Troop.

 

In general, besides the OP's drive by posting (Please update us!!!!!) I'm trying to summarize the topics that have been raised here if we'd like to start a new topic about any of them that would be a little more concise and focused.

 

OP: Testing during Scoutmasters conferences, yay or nay?

Other topics:

Patrol Method

Boy Led

Sign offs for Advancement

What makes an Eagle Scout an Eagle Scout?

What makes a Boy Scout a Boy Scout?

BSA Aims and Methods.

 

Huge post. I apologize. I wanted to get a lot of thoughts out of my head at once!

[Eagledad]

To anybody who cares to read: I suppose my approach to Scoutmaster's Conferences and Eagle is one and the same. Scouts do the advancement and are signed off when completed. In my mind that's the only test needed. I don't feel like I need to protect the integrity of the advancement process other than verifying that book is signed. Another poster compared the Scout skills to high school classes and the "Use it or lose it" concept. I think retesting in Scoutmaster's conferences encourages Scouts to brush up their skills when they need to pass a Scoutmaster's conference, but if they don't need the skills in their normal Scouting activities they will forget the skills till they need them for another SMC. So in my troop I'm focusing on the Patrol Method, which I think will encourage the scouts to lead, be more involved and hopefully in due time, retain their skills better.

 

So in my troop I'm focusing on the Patrol Method, which I think will encourage the scouts to lead, be more involved and hopefully in due time, retain their skills better.

 

I am so very impressed. You are going to make a great Scoutmaster.

 

I admit that I’ve grown frustrated with some members on this forum who talk all day long of a patrol method and boy run, but separate advancement, rank and even uniform as something the adults must control to maintain some kind of imaginary integrity of the program. That means they don’t understand or really trust boy run and patrol method.

 

You in short said, if the adults build the Patrol Method part of the program correctly, everything else will follow and the adults should not have to interfere in any of the Eight Methods for scouts to grow to their full maturity. That is exactly right. Does anyone here have the courage to never push a scout to any rank? Could they possibly never even mention the word Eagle trusting that the program will do all the talking for them? That should be the goal.

 

We shouldn’t need to worry about the quality of Eagles if the program builds quality scouts. Not all scouts want to be Eagles, so why should they have to suffer under the dreams of the adults? Shouldn’t every scout be the best he can be of his dream?

 

The adults’ responsibility is to develop a program where scouts are free from adult influence of making independent decisions. If a scout chooses to be a Tenderfoot for the next three years, it shouldn’t be the adults concern so long as he is continually growing. The adults’ only concern is to insure that the program has the structure to challenge “all†boys at “all†ages to work and reach their dreams.

 

If you were to interview 11 year old boys and ask them to honestly say what they want from the troop, you might hear 1 boy in 20 say “Eagleâ€Â. But adults put so much pressure on boys to be Eagles, they say Eagle just because they know that is what the adult wants to hear. Now, if you interview a 15 year old in a mature boy run troop and ask him his desire of the program, at least half will speak of the Eagle. The reason is because a good troop constantly challenges a boy to grow and that growth teaches boys to look farther ahead to dreams he once never thought possible. These troops don’t send 11 year olds to leadership development training so they can be a 12 year old Patrol Leader. They let the scout grow in little steps through a fun program to develop the confidence of working as part of the team and learning skills that give him independence to survive by himself in unusual situations.

 

I have often said that the best way to measure the quality of the troop program is by observing the older scouts. Do this at your next summer camp. Older scouts are the results of how the program develops the younger scouts. To many adults think of scouting as being over at age 14, but in reality that is the when it becomes the most fun and most rewarding for the scouts because that is when they get to be adults. That is also the hardest part of the program for adults to develop.

 

The most successful troops are obvious in that scouts are excited to be in the program because they feel good about themselves. The troop should be the one place where the introverted scout is recognized by his abilities that contribute to the Patrol. His weakness should not be a restraint on his quest to his dream..

 

My challenge to all here is develop a program that creates Eagles without EVER EVER mentioning the “E†word to a single scout in the context of him reaching that goal. The program should take a boy to “his†dreams, not his “leaders†dreams. I can assure you such a program will make more Eagles than you could ever dream. But more important, all your scouts will be the best men of character and citizens of integrity.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

... My challenge to all here is develop a program that creates Eagles without EVER EVER mentioning the “E†word to a single scout in the context of him reaching that goal. ...

Well, Barry, the Venturing division has called that "stealth advancement" it's a great approach if scouters are satisfied with 1 in every thousand boys moving beyond First Class. What's very interesting: nobody is nagging any of my venturers to earn venturing awards (old or new). So, how I choose to advise the occasional youth who chooses to go for an award comes under zero criticism.

 

Fact is, I try to stay as mum as possible about Eagle to our youth. We have enough older scouts proposing projects and having special courts of honor that the cycle seems pretty much self-sustaining. That should be enough, but Son #2 can't avoid heat from all angles:

• Grandma sits beside him and says, "Now I don't want you to worry or anything, but Papa and I aren't getting any younger, and we sure would like to be spry enough to make it to your Court of Honor."
  
• A soccer dad (whose boys are in another troop) confronts him every week about why he hasn't started Personal Fitness MB.
  
• Grandpa tells me there aren't many families that can boast 3 Eagles in a household.
  
• Mrs. Q is demanding daily progress reports.
  

There have been tears. Unnecessary shouting matches. Lame excuses.

 

Frankly, if he'd miss the 17.5 mark to earn Life, I'd be just fine. I want to call off the hounds. But folks, I have to sleep at night! So I'm trying to walk a line saying to him privately "If you don't want this, just say so. I'll back you. But if you do, hustle up." At the moment he's hustling up. It's just a little sad that some of that is out of fear of disappointment vs. out of joy for the opportunities.

[JoeBob]

2 cautions:

Totally 'boy led' can devolve into 'boy led astray'. The trips become all car camping because it's comfortable. A little adult pressure is needed to push the envelope and go backpacking and canoing.

 

So rather than retest and lament at why my Scouts don't retain their skills' date=' I want to attack the root of the problem, that our Troop program doesn't challenge the Scouts to use some of their skills.They won't upkeep skills they don't think are useful or necessary. [/quote']

Absolutely right! (I even had one boy debate with me the usefulness of First Aid because he can call 911.)

 

Adults have to walk a fine line between pushing the boys and letting them do it.

This past weekend we were camping on a sand bar (Blackwater River, FL) Had a nice kitchen set up on overturned canoes, and absolutely no where to hang a lantern. As I'm helping them with their tripod lashing, I'm telling myself "They should be doing more of this. Let them fail and learn from a sloppy lashing. But it's getting dark! We need to get this lantern in the air so that they can cook dinner before they fall over asleep."

 

It's hard to stay balanced.

[Eagledad]

There have been tears. Unnecessary shouting matches. Lame excuses.

 

Frankly, if he'd miss the 17.5 mark to earn Life, I'd be just fine. I want to call off the hounds. But folks, I have to sleep at night! So I'm trying to walk a line saying to him privately "If you don't want this, just say so. I'll back you. But if you do, hustle up." At the moment he's hustling up. It's just a little sad that some of that is out of fear of disappointment vs. out of joy for the opportunities.

 

Been there and done that with my younger son. He didn't go for the Eagle and I supported him with his decision, but it wasn't without the struggles you are experiencing now. All I can say is that I can look myself in the mirror today because my now 26 year old son still looks back at his scouting experience with great fondness and has zero regrets with his choice of earning the Eagle.

 

Barry

 

[Sentinel947]

2 cautions:

Totally 'boy led' can devolve into 'boy led astray'. The trips become all car camping because it's comfortable. A little adult pressure is needed to push the envelope and go backpacking and canoing.

 

 

Absolutely right! (I even had one boy debate with me the usefulness of First Aid because he can call 911.)

 

Adults have to walk a fine line between pushing the boys and letting them do it.

This past weekend we were camping on a sand bar (Blackwater River, FL) Had a nice kitchen set up on overturned canoes, and absolutely no where to hang a lantern. As I'm helping them with their tripod lashing, I'm telling myself "They should be doing more of this. Let them fail and learn from a sloppy lashing. But it's getting dark! We need to get this lantern in the air so that they can cook dinner before they fall over asleep."

 

It's hard to stay balanced.

I agree with everything you said. I'm curious as to what you told that Scout about First aid? I wonder if I'd be the same thing I'd say. You reminded me of a truism my old Scoutmaster used back in 2005, "We are boy led, not boy led off the rails, and over the cliff."

 

[qwazse]

... "We are boy led' date=' not boy led off the rails, and over the cliff." ...[/quote']

Speak for yourself! I have the numbers of 5 different climbing guides and locations of dozens of cliffs. If they make the calls, procure rope biners and helmets, they'll be making the drops!

[Stosh]

Yep, we are boy-led, we let the boys learn from their mistakes, but they aren't allowed to jump the rails or go over the cliff.

 

Why not?

 

Absolutely right! (I even had one boy debate with me the usefulness of First Aid because he can call 911.) .... "and one can bleed to death before the ambulance leaves the station"... (and then the coup d'ete.... "and what if that person bleeding was your mother?")

 

"Adults have to walk a fine line between pushing the boys and letting them do it.

This past weekend we were camping on a sand bar (Blackwater River, FL) Had a nice kitchen set up on overturned canoes, and absolutely no where to hang a lantern. As I'm helping them with their tripod lashing, I'm telling myself "They should be doing more of this. Let them fail and learn from a sloppy lashing. But it's getting dark! We need to get this lantern in the air so that they can cook dinner before they fall over asleep."

 

It's hard to stay balanced."

 

So? They aren't going to starve to death by missing a meal...... It's not a matter of being balanced, it's a matter of sticking with the program. If the boys know the adults will buckle, they'll push that envelop first.

 

Stosh

[koolaidman]

Anyone recognize the first letter from the podcast from another forum today?

[Stosh]

Anyone recognize the first letter from the podcast from another forum today?

 

???

[Sentinel947]

Anyone recognize the first letter from the podcast from another forum today?

I did!!!!

[koolaidman]

 

 

???

 

 

scoutmastercg.com podcast #240

 

Either Clarke has a backlog, or scoutmom wants different advice.

[Stosh]

Thanks.

 

Stosh