Scoutmaster Conference - Is this the right way?

[TAHAWK]

Don't kid yourself TAHAWK' date=' in your black and white world, you stand with stosh in kicking the gessers out. [/quote']

 

Hardly. I am in favor of "gessers." It's what keeps my world from being black and white in many, but not all, respects.

 

So that I don't guess, where are you on the suggested solution of having the Scout confront the united Scouters of the troop regarding their adding to the requirements for advancement?

 

Yes he could, so why would an adult ever need to a scout he is out of uniform?[/Quote]

 

I could guess what you mean to ask, but it would be better if you let us know.

 

 

[Stosh]

Tahawk,

 

OMG, you are one of "them"! Instead of striving for the ideal black/white, you better start settling for middle-of-the-road mediocre before someone stereotypes you as one of "them"..... Be warned!

 

I'm thinking that at my age maybe I might be a gesser (?) geezer? Same for my ASM who's the same age as me. Whereas I have a lot of non-scouting youth experience, so does she... GSUSA, AHG, and BSA (District Commissioner). My COR is an Eagle Scout and is probably the youngest of all my leaders at 30+ 2 of the 5 MC's are retired and one of them 40+ years as 4-H leader.

 

And yet with this hodge-podge of old gessers, our troop is expecting to double in size next year. We are drawing now from 3 packs and the surrounding community.

 

Kicking out old gessers? Nope, that's what makes my troop what it is.

 

Stosh

[JasonG172]

I wish I had a few old geezers in my committees and Leaders

[TAHAWK]

If it's "geezer," I doubtless qualify. And I have been both "them," "they," "we," and "us" simultaneously for several decades.

 

As most of us know, many advancement "rules" are quite vague: "Discuss"; "Describe"; "Explain." Still, if you don't even try to follow the rules, . . . . .

 

Uniforms, as noted several times here, are optional under the rules of Scouting, That seems fairly black and white.

 

Not that I do favor and encourage uniforming. Which is why I urge B.S.A. to adopt a uniform instead of merely clothing purchased from B.S.A.

[fred johnson]

 

Amen.

 

In my opinion a troop that fails to comport with the overly complicated, high-speed/low-drag, everyone gets a badge Guide to Advancement is an indication of a unit whose leader care greatly about really delivering on Scouting's aims of citizenship, character development and personal fitness.

 

I agree with Matt when he says "Yes, the SMC is not supposed to be a test, but rank implies a set of skills the scout knows, not just once knew.."

 

I agree with Matt's truism. What I disagree with is bad mouthing the GTA or BSA's program. GTA focuses on fairness and aims head-on at units that use bureaucratic red tape to make up for teaching deficiencies. Don't add headaches for the scout to make up for other failings.

[fred johnson]

scoutmom757 ... There are lots of opinions on this and I'm writing to you because there are many that have hot heads about this. I use the term "loosely" because it's not really an opinion thing. There is a right and wrong.

 

BSA lays out the program. It's documented in your son's BSA handbook and BSA's Guide To Advancement. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...sa%20gta%20pdf

 

If your son is having a positive experience, then let things be.

 

If your son is feeling discouraged or wanting to give up, then look for another troop.

 

Here's the key issues in my opinion.

 

--- Scoutmaster conference is a conversation. Period. Hopefully friendly too. It can happen anytime. Ideally, it is as easy as the scout saying TO THE SCOUTMASTER ... "Can we have a scoutmaster conference?" ... The ideal answer is "Sure. Let's sit down.". Close to that is "How about it ten minutes?" ... "Or after ???" ... or names a time.

 

--- Scoutmaster conference has NO PREREQUISITES. It's a conversation. That's it. It is not a test and has no aspect of a test.

 

--- Board of Review ... is also NOT a test. It's checking that requirements are done.

 

--- BSA advancement is structured to be simple. It has many individual requirements, but the structure is simple. Anytime a troop needs to add process it's a big big red flag. If they need a diagram or flowchart to describe advancement, RUN AWAY FAST.

 

So in my opinion what is happening is the troop has added a lot of non-BSA bureaucratic red tape to make sure learning is happening.

 

This approach just creates contradictions. With the leader documents. With the Guide To Advancement. With BSA training. You can reach the same objectives with high quality without adding bureaucratic red tape.

 

================================================== =

 

Testing is NOT part of the SMC. That's wrong. Period.

 

Also, re-testing as part of advancement is equally wrong.

 

There are ways to make sure an Eagle scout knows his tenderfoot, 2nd class and first class skills. And it doesn't involve adding process steps or retesting.

[TAHAWK]

 

I agree with Matt when he says "Yes, the SMC is not supposed to be a test, but rank implies a set of skills the scout knows, not just once knew.."

 

I agree with Matt's truism. What I disagree with is bad mouthing the GTA or BSA's program. GTA focuses on fairness and aims head-on at units that use bureaucratic red tape to make up for teaching deficiencies. Don't add headaches for the scout to make up for other failings.

 

 

Generally, I sure wish people, including me, didn't forget things once learned, but we do. So if a Scout remains, for example, familiar with his knots, that is usually because the unit program causes him to keep using those knots. So Knot Clubs, knot contests, and removing those slider gadgets from tent ropes, not retesting under the guise of Scoutmaster Conference.

[Stosh]

If one were to read the requirement closely, it says have a SMC, it doesn't say anything about having to pass a SMC. Once held, have it marked off, if the SM or ASM refuses to sign off on advancement when it is obviously done, then there's something wrong with the system they are following. I don't know what recourse one has at that point, but it is obvious to all proper advancement processes are not being followed. I would go directly to the SM and ask for a SMC and instead of him asking the questions, have the boy read the requirement and have the SM explain why it is not being followed according to BSA policy. At least at that point one will know whether to go to another troop or not.

 

Stosh

[MattR]

Generally, I sure wish people, including me, didn't forget things once learned, but we do. So if a Scout remains, for example, familiar with his knots, that is usually because the unit program causes him to keep using those knots. So Knot Clubs, knot contests, and removing those slider gadgets from tent ropes, not retesting under the guise of Scoutmaster Conference.

 

The adults need to intrude somewhere. They either define the calendar and require knot contests, they test somehow, or it's one and done. Having the scouts teach is good, but that's only a few scouts.

 

The least evil thing I can think of is have an adult sit down with a scout once per rank and work with him until he knows the skills. At the same time I require every campout to have some challenge or competition, their choice. Sometimes it's a First Class skill, so they slowly get covered.

[TAHAWK]

If adults do it right, it is not intrusion. So long as we remember, as has been said, that it's not the destination; it's the journey that is important..

 

It's easy to forget the objective and focus on the tools, such as learning knots.

 

What is important for us [as adults in Scouting] is:

• NOT the food on the campout, but that the boys cooked it.
  
• NOT a sharp-looking flag ceremony, but that the boys put it together.
  
• NOT who would make the best Patrol Leader [in our opinion], but that the boys elect one.
  
• NOT that Johnny learns first aid, but that Billy teaches him.
  
• NOT that we cover everything on the meeting agenda, but that the Senior Patrol Leader is in charge.

 

[MattR]

I choose door number 4, Billy teaches Johnny.

 

There are two things needed to make this work. The first is Billy is held accountable for how well Johnny does. The second is that every scout gets a chance to teach, often.

 

Is it reasonable to say Johnny's PL can ask any Billy in his patrol with the correct rank to teach Johnny, Billy can't refuse, and if Johnny isn't proficient then the ASM can go back to Billy and work with him to learn the skill? Or Billy and the PL? It's another test of sorts but it has nothing to do with a scout's rank advancement.

[TAHAWK]

Ideally, the Scout gets on the Internet or finds some other source and figures it out himself. But , personally, I don't think its a sin if he uses human resources, in the form of adults, to learn what he needs to learn in order to teach. Teaching is a useful skill for a leader and adults primary responsibility, after safety, is training leaders - or at least that's what my Position Card. says.

[scoutergipper]

To me, it's more important that the Scouts create opportunities to use their skills on a regular basis. If each Patrol Leader (for example) asks a different Scout or Scouts to lash up a useful camp gadget each time we're in the field, or assigns a different Scout to keep a Patrol hike on track with a map and compass on each outing, the skills won't degrade over time from lack of use.

[fred johnson]

The least evil thing I can think of is have an adult sit down with a scout once per rank and work with him until he knows the skills.

 

That's great. Just don't do it as part of the advancement process. Make that the job of the troop guide and/or SM/ASM. Just de-link it from the advancement process. Advancement is a promise. Scouts complete BSA requirements as BSA documents and they advance. I am all for good quality to make sure requirements are done. But stick to the promise as BSA documents. Essentially, the Boy Scout Handbook has a place to sign and date each requirement as it's completed. That's the promise. There is no place to re-check previous skills.

 

I just don't like adding process steps to make up for other issues. It creates contradictions and breaks trust.

 

Work with scouts to make sure they know their skills, but de-link it from advancement.

 

 

At the same time I require every campout to have some challenge or competition' date=' their choice. Sometimes it's a First Class skill, so they slowly get covered.[/quote']

 

I think it's great to have challenges or competitions at camp outs.

 

Also, I think it's great when troops use equipment that requires the skills. Using a large pole shelter with elastic snap ties requires no skills, Use a rain fly and use the proper knots. Or if you do, secure it with guy wires and taut line knots.

 

Tents ... don't use the pre-done tension clips. Have scouts learn the taut line knot. Undo and remove the ropes between uses so that the ropes need to be retied again. It's extra work, but that's learning the skills.

 

Don't complain that your scouts are lacking skills if the skills are not needed.

 

...........................................................................

 

I remember being shamed on maybe my fourth or fifth scout canoe trip. We needed extra canoes. So I secured one to the roof of my car. I used truck ratchet straps. But those straps kept becoming more lose and would oscillate in the wind. So "a parent" brought rope from his car and tied a series of extremely well done knots, cranked on that rope and that canoe was more secure than anything I could do with those cheap ratchet straps. Incredibly well done knots.

 

Still impressed today by what he did today without any advance planning. It was skill and experience.

 

[Brewmeister]

If the rest of life ran the way that some people here believe scouting should be run, we'd all have to turn in our high school diplomas because we no longer remember 100% of high school geometry, and nobody would ever graduate without getting perfect marks on all their tests in every subject. Scouting advancement is about displaying a broad-based competency in a variety of different situations. It's ok to forget stuff, and to need to consult and re-consult the handbook from time to time.