Scoutmaster Conference - Is this the right way?

[Eagledad]

Well as someone who has worked at both the district and council level, I will say you don't have near enough information on this troop to know if it is a bad troop. The best I could say from my experience that it is likely not a boy run troop. That in of itself is a good reason to look around, but it's not like boy run programs are the majority and easy to find. Most if not all troops don't follow all the rules, it's just a matter of where each unit feels they can enhance their program by crossing a line. Strict uniform code? Please! Very common and I even found over the years many leaders here justifying their so-called boy run program with full uniforms. All I can say is I have never seen a fully uniformed boy run program. And as far as condemning the retesting at conferences, go back to some recent young Eagle discussions and read how some say they will ensure their scouts are stamped into the eagle they think they should be. I am amazed how we sometimes turn things around to justify our desires. Barry

[TAHAWK]

So, Barry, does it comport with the G2A to repeatedly retest a Scout in a "Scoutmaster Conference" and "fail" the Scout for the reasons stated by the OP?

[fred johnson]

scoutmom757 ...

 

QUESTION ... When you look in your son's boy scout handbook at the rank requirements pages (back of book in new books), there is a place to initial and date each requirement. It is common practice to test a boy on requirements and use the book to track completed requirements. The general rule is that if the requirement is initialed in the book, it's done. If there is an issue, you address improving the process and you address getting the scout that knowledge, ... BUT ... you don't uncheck the requirement as being done. ... AND WE DON'T RETEST.

 

Scoutmaster Conference ... is a friendly conversation. It is not a pass or fail. Any worthwhile troop will let scouts talk with the scoutmaster anytime. Heck, the SMC doesn't even need to be the last requirement. It can be completed anywhere in the sequence. SMC is about the scout and scoutmaster having a heart to heart conversation.

 

Board of review ... is also NOT a test. The BOR confirms requirements are done. It does NOT test for the requirements. It is more checking all the boxes are marked and nothing has been missed.

 

---------------------------

 

You will not find a perfect troop or a perfect set of adult leaders. Maybe this troop has value and it's worth putting up with these issues. Or, perhaps these issues are different than they appear.

 

Watch and decide. But your son should not hesitate to switch if he is having a bad experience. Or if it looks like his motivation will be killed.

 

 

[Eagledad]

So' date=' Barry, does it comport with the G2A to repeatedly retest a Scout in a "Scoutmaster Conference" and "fail" the Scout for the reasons stated by the OP?[/quote']

 

 

No

 

Do you think it is a hanging offense?

 

Barry

[Stosh]

One doesn't have to always jump to the extreme, but something should be done to insure proper training and continual vetting for these "leaders". They are doing more damage to the program than others can cover up?

 

I have seen and participated in unit that was run like this and they have 30 scouts so they look good on paper. The problem likes in the fact that they take on 20 new boys every year and somewhere along the line, they end up a year later with 30 scouts once more. They did this constantly for the 13 years I was with the program. That's about 350 boys that were sacrificed to abusive leadership practices of adults. Is that a hanging offense? No, but it is proper to get rid of these leaders....?(which that unit finally did after about 20 years) Oh, and by the way.... when they dumped this SM they didn't take away his WB beads, or his Silver Beaver....

 

Hanging is a bit extreme, but removal from scouting is always a good option for leadership like this.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

You use one personal experience to shut down a troop for one flaw in their program. You guys need to walk a mile in the DE's shoes and really see how programs are run. I can assure that every program including the great Stosh has red flags. There is no worse action than over reaction. You don't know enough about this troop to shut it down.

 

Barry

[Sentinel947]

This scenario is actually really common. It's how my troop was growing up and how my current troop operates. In many units it's an ingrained tradition. "but we've always done it this way." It's wrong as far as the BSA is concerned. I think it's unnecessary to retest Scouts. Generally I don't think it points to abusive adults, merely misguided ones. So OP, if your son likes this troop otherwise, I'd play along. If not, look for another troop. I'm a ten year insider and I can't change this culture in my troop. A fairly new parent will simply be brushed aside as being a meddler and a helicopter.

[MattR]

To the OP, there's clearly a problem of expectations. The boy doesn't know what they are. I'd have a problem with a troop that fails a kid that's not wearing green socks. That there are also 3 different adults working with him is also a problem.

 

The idea of whether to test is also not very clear. Yes, the SMC is not supposed to be a test, but rank implies a set of skills the scout knows, not just once knew. It's the SM that needs to ensure that happens. One approach is to do some sort of skill check and the other is to have enough activities that the scouts will constantly re learn the skills, or better yet, teach the skills. But that runs into the problem of the scouts picking their own activities. There aren't many opportunities to tie a bowline unless it's something contrived (like a knot relay), and the scouts aren't so keen on those.

 

So we trade off between the check and having activities that use the skills. I strongly urge my PLC to come up with some skill challenges for every campout, their choice, to use for activities, competition and what not. At the same time, we also check skills around rank advancement, but not nearly as harsh as the OP describes. It's a rare case where a scout has to come back more than once. Before a scout can have his SM conference he sits down with an ASM, and they review the skills from Tenderfoot up to the rank he's completing. If the boy doesn't know them they figure out what to do about it. The ASM can reteach it or the boy can decide he just needs to go home and review it. The boy always goes back to the same ASM. BTW, they need a scout shirt, green pants and a neckerchief, all of which can be borrowed.

 

After that they have the SMC with me, and I do nearly all of the SMCs with a larger troop than the OP mentions. It's a low pressure thing to talk about how they live the oath and law, what else they do outside of scouts, how things are going, and what they want to do in the future in scouts. I really enjoy the talk and the scouts seem to as well.

[Tampa Turtle]

Hmmm, I'd probably remark he needed to know his knots and concentrate on practice after the BOR. As for the socks I'd give him the importance of the uniform, setting a good example, etc and offer alternatives (we have had boys exchange the same pair of socks for a BOR) but would not hold him up. Oath and Law...I'd expect a 1st Class to hit it pretty close but not perfect...I've seen boys given time to reacquaint themselves and reconvene a few minutes later. It seems a little too mickey mouse for me...

[Stosh]

You use one personal experience to shut down a troop for one flaw in their program. You guys need to walk a mile in the DE's shoes and really see how programs are run. I can assure that every program including the great Stosh has red flags. There is no worse action than over reaction. You don't know enough about this troop to shut it down.

 

Barry

 

And who suggested one shut down the troop? My one "personal experience" was not to shut down the troop, and it took 20 years to remove the inept SM, and that was about 5-6 years after I left. They now have a new SM, lot less experience, but trained and on the right page. The troop has taken on a lot more scouts and is doing just fine.

 

Shutting down troops is never an option. All that does is make it bad for the scouts and there are a lot of things one can do short of taking it out on the boys because of a few bad apple leaders. As UC I have had troops fold under my watch, but the DE and I were able to make sure all the boys transitioned into other units with the least amount of disruption. We lost a troop, some leaders, but no boys. It was a bittersweet win.

 

Walk in the DE's shoes? I did spend a some time as a professional scouter, so I know what those shoes are all about.

 

Stosh

[JasonG172]

I am going to say (and I see some don't agree) if I ever see a scout in white socks I kindly ask him not to wear them to meetings.

 

And yes it is APART of the uniform !

[Eagledad]

And yes it is APART of the uniform !

How would a scout know? Barry

[TAHAWK]

 

 

No

 

Do you think it is a hanging offense?

 

Barry

 

 

No. Just a good reason to find another troop rather than expect a boy to take on intrenched, mistaken adults.

 

How would a scout know? Barry

 

He could look in the Handbook on page 33.

[Eagledad]

No. Just a good reason to find another troop rather than expect a boy to take on intrenched' date=' mistaken adults.[/quote'] Don't kid yourself TAHAWK, in your black and white world, you stand with stosh in kicking the gessers out.

He could look in the Handbook on page 33.

Yes he could, so why would an adult ever need to a scout he is out of uniform?

[Twocubdad]

Yes' date=' the SMC is not supposed to be a test, but rank implies a set of skills the scout knows, not just once knew..[/quote']

 

Amen.

 

In my opinion a troop that fails to comport with the overly complicated, high-speed/low-drag, everyone gets a badge Guide to Advancement is an indication of a unit whose leader care greatly about really delivering on Scouting's aims of citizenship, character development and personal fitness.

 

So Scoutmom, you start looking for new troops and the one down the road tells you their program will help your son become more responsible, focused better organized, and make better grades in school. Would you jump at the opportunity? HECK YES! What do you suppose that program might look like? One possibility would be it looks a whole lot like the troop you're in now.

 

Instead of going momma bear, step back and see what you are getting: First, the troop has already invested three times the amount of time into your son's Scoutmaster conference they should have. Every time your son gets turned around, that's another meeting for one of the adults, too. What is more likely: the adults enjoy tormenting teenage boys or they are putting extra effort into their vision of what a good program requires? Secondly, what are they asking him to do? "Be Prepared" comes to mind. Studying and preparing for the material shouldn't be shouldn't be too difficult. He has a copy of the test in the requirement section of his Boy Scout Handbook. I ask my Scouts if their math teacher distributed copies of all the tests at the beginning of the school year, do they think they could make an "A". All say the could (although I'm not so sure about that :-) ). Lastly, yeah the socks are nit-picky but is teaching attention to detail and striving for perfection a bad thing?

 

Conferences in our troop are not wholly unlike this. We actually expect our Scouts to maintain competence in their basic skills. A few things we do differently: one, we are clear what will be asked during conferences by providing a list of requirements we will cover. Secondly, if a Scout doesn't know something, we go into instruction mode and help him with it. We would also keep going with the conference, as long as time allows, so if he needs to come back he knows everything he needs to work on. And I'm not too worried about uniforms at SMCs. In fact, if I'm meeting a scout off-line somewhere, maybe in the afternoon after school or during the middle of a campout, I'll frequently tell them not to worry about changing. If we're meeting before or during a troop meeting, I do expect that they are in full uniform, as that is the expectation for troop meetings. Still, I probably wouldn't bust them over socks, although I may bring it up. Board of Reviews, however do require full uniform, of which I remind them during the conference.