How to deal with another Unit trying to subvert yours?

[DuctTape]

I have the complete opposite opinion. Packs should not be part of the troop. The name feeder pack, is the problem, not the solution. When troops believe that the packs belong to them, their is a preconceived notion that the boys must go to that troop regardless if the troop provides a program aligned with the boys interests. In general packs are neighborhood based, kids from the same school etc... this works well for the cub program. But the BSA has troops which may be more high adventure based, or council summer camp types, or more individual patrol activities or district camporees, etc... Troop prgrams have far too much variation due to the multitude of opportunities. To force a boy into a troop which doesn't fit isn't the answer. packs do not exist to supply troops with boys, in fact the boys do not exist to keep a troop alive. The troop exists to provide opportunities for the boys, not the other way around. I would even go a step further and advocate for eliminating the entire "chartering organization" paradigm. When a CO has both a pack and a troop is promotes the idea the troop owns the pack. It also removes the BSA from being accountable to the boys for which the BSA program is designed. The fact the CO "owns" the troop or pack removes any oversight or accountability to come from the BSA. I believe this is why we are in the situation we are in . The claim of BSA is a misnomer, it is really each individual CO version of what they think BSA is. IMO it cheapens the brand by abdicating the responsibility to maintain the brand's integrity to a different organization.

[mattman578]

Hmm this sounds like a big misunderstanding that can be cleared up easily I think last year all of our webelos when to a different boy scout troop then our CO this caused some issues between the CO and our scout master told the CO the truth "the troop leader worked a lot with the boys and the CO did not work with them that much" work with the webelos den leader attend the some den meetings help the leader out if the boys know you they will be more likely to come and play with you.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

While I know the group concept that some propose and is in use in the UK will work, I know at least in my locality there are issues.

 

#1 Most, stress most, Boy Scout leaders do not want to deal with Cub Scouting as it it a lot more leader intensive than Cub Scouts. Trust me, the only position IMHO tougher than being a Cub Scout den leader is being a DE.

 

I know many Boy Scout leaders are former Cub Leaders, and are now enjoying their well earned rest. And I know many Cub Scout leaders who are tired, exhausted, etc, including yours truly, who cannot wait for their son(s) to Cross Over abe become Boy Scouts so they can get a break (4 years 3 months until youngest crosses over, but who's counting )

 

#2 Because of the vast program differences between Cub Scout and Boy Scouts, Cub Scout leaders may not fully understand the Boy Scout Program to be of assistance on a group committee, and Boy Scout leaders, including the youth leaders I might add, are afraid that if Cub Scout leaders get involved, it will devolve the Boy Scout program.

 

I know I hated when Cub Scout leaders visiting, and then becoming Boy Scout leaders a few month later, interfered with the PLC's program and the patrols' activities when camping. And unfortunately i know of one troop that has been taken over by former Cub Scout leaders who refuse to change how they have always run things despite being trained. No more comment on that as I will rant.

 

#3 Some folks will be wearing multiple hats in the group, and it will get overwhelming. My son's troop has a very close relationship with the pack, and comes the closest to the group model that I've seen on this side of the pond.

 

But I see challenges where folks are wearing multiple hats with both units, ASM and CM, TCDL and ASM, DL and Committee, etc, and it can get interesting. Especially since we have a number of district and council activities in the fall, scheduling is a P.I.T.A. (i.e. someone scheduled a CS even the same weekend as the district camporee, which Webelos are invited to attend and conflicts with those of use in both CS and BS duties. CM/ASM, who is also an Arrowman, has 4 weekends in a row he is doing Scouting: troop fundraiser, OA Fellowship, district camporee, and council CS family camp out)

 

Burn out is a problem.

 

#4 While Cub Scout packs are generally the same due to the nature of the CS Program, troops set their own programs based upon the interests and resources of the youth, and yes adults as well. So each troop is different. Heck I know of three scouts who are in the process of finding a new troop after their original troop went to Trail's Life, and the current troop they are in has some challenges for the three Scouts.

[fred johnson]

I have the complete opposite opinion. Packs should not be part of the troop. The name feeder pack' date=' is the problem, not the solution. When troops believe that the packs belong to them, their is a preconceived notion that the boys must go to that troop regardless if the troop provides a program aligned with the boys interests. In general packs are neighborhood based, kids from the same school etc... this works well for the cub program. But the BSA has troops which may be more high adventure based, or council summer camp types, or more individual patrol activities or district camporees, etc... Troop prgrams have far too much variation due to the multitude of opportunities. To force a boy into a troop which doesn't fit isn't the answer. packs do not exist to supply troops with boys, in fact the boys do not exist to keep a troop alive. The troop exists to provide opportunities for the boys, not the other way around. [/quote']

 

Mismatch between boys and unit expectations happens at all levels. Scouts should always be able to switch units whether it is at Tiger cub, Wolf, Bear, Webelos, or any level of Boy Scout. It's not about forcing boys to stay. It's about working together.

 

Cub scout packs need the experienced leaders to do a better job. It's as simple as that. If Boy Scouts wants to thrive, it needs to care for the groups that feed their membership.

 

 

The fact the CO "owns" the troop or pack removes any oversight or accountability to come from the BSA. I believe this is why we are in the situation we are in . The claim of BSA is a misnomer' date=' it is really each individual CO version of what they think BSA is. IMO it cheapens the brand by abdicating the responsibility to maintain the brand's integrity to a different organization. [/quote']

 

LOL. I think many lawyers continually make the same argument when some CO ignores BSA's rules and keeps a leader who has been removed from BSA and BSA has told the CO not to have that person as a leader or to let him work with scouts.

 

I laught because, of all the changes possible, this is the one that won't change.

 

The model closer to what "I think" you prefer is the Girl scout model where Girl Scouts have much more involvement in each unit. GSUSA equivalent of the district exec is supposed to have access to the unit checking accounts and the scouting council is part owner of the account. Need to recharter or register new scouts? Easy, the council can automatically draw the funds from your checking account themselves.

[fred johnson]

Arguing that Cub Scout leaders don't understand the Boy Scout program is a huge reason to create a much stronger tie between Cub Scout and Boy Scout units.

 

Working together helps everyone.

 

 

#1 Most, stress most, Boy Scout leaders do not want to deal with Cub Scouting as it it a lot more leader intensive than Cub Scouts. Trust me, the only position IMHO tougher than being a Cub Scout den leader is being a DE.

 

I know many Boy Scout leaders are former Cub Leaders, and are now enjoying their well earned rest. And I know many Cub Scout leaders who are tired, exhausted, etc, including yours truly, who cannot wait for their son(s) to Cross Over abe become Boy Scouts so they can get a break (4 years 3 months until youngest crosses over, but who's counting )

 

This is not about Boy Scout leaders taking on more work. This is about mentoring and growing Cub Scout leaders and supporting the Cub Scout program.

 

The job of a cub Scout leader is all the more hard because they constantly re-learn and re-create the program. Having mentors to guide and observe would be enormously valuable. Having older scouts who could step in at times to help is invaluable.

 

That's the value of a one-unit concept.

 

 

#2 Because of the vast program differences between Cub Scout and Boy Scouts, Cub Scout leaders may not fully understand the Boy Scout Program to be of assistance on a group committee, and Boy Scout leaders, including the youth leaders I might add, are afraid that if Cub Scout leaders get involved, it will devolve the Boy Scout program.

 

Vast differences? Ya know ... there is also supposed to be big differences between Tiger and Webelos ... almost more than between Webelos and Boy Scouts. There is also a big difference between high adventure trips and the new scout weekends. The whole program is about progressive responsibility and growth.

 

The trouble is Cub Scout leaders are not exposed to observing and learning how Boy Scouts works. Instead, it's a shock like change that is dangled for two years and then happens all at once. That shock like change is BAD.

 

 

 

I know I hated when Cub Scout leaders visiting, and then becoming Boy Scout leaders a few month later, interfered with the PLC's program and the patrols' activities when camping. And unfortunately I know of one troop that has been taken over by former Cub Scout leaders who refuse to change how they have always run things despite being trained. No more comment on that as I will rant.

 

As it is now, of course that is how it happens. Cub Scout leaders get deeply invested in the success of their scouts. Then there is a jump across a huge divide into Boy Scouts. Do you expect them to step back?

 

With a one-unit concept, leaders have years to slowly observe and learn to trust the leaders and methods of Boy Scouting.

 

 

#3 Some folks will be wearing multiple hats in the group, and it will get overwhelming. My son's troop has a very close relationship with the pack, and comes the closest to the group model that I've seen on this side of the pond.

 

But I see challenges where folks are wearing multiple hats with both units, ASM and CM, TCDL and ASM, DL and Committee, etc, and it can get interesting. Especially since we have a number of district and council activities in the fall, scheduling is a P.I.T.A. (i.e. someone scheduled a CS even the same weekend as the district camporee, which Webelos are invited to attend and conflicts with those of use in both CS and BS duties. CM/ASM, who is also an Arrowman, has 4 weekends in a row he is doing Scouting: troop fundraiser, OA Fellowship, district camporee, and council CS family camp out)

 

Burn out is a problem.

 

This is always a problem with volunteers who have more than one child. BUT ...

 

Managing the issues with wearing multiple hates is ALWAYS HARDER with separate Cub and Boy Scout units. You have two committees planning and expecting people to step up. Cub Scout assignments don't see what people are committing to do in Boy Scouts. And the Boy Scout assignments don't account for Cub Scout assignments. If it was one unit, it would be much easier to see who is over-extended.

 

The one-unit concept better avoids burn-out.

 

 

 

#4 While Cub Scout packs are generally the same due to the nature of the CS Program, troops set their own programs based upon the interests and resources of the youth, and yes adults as well. So each troop is different. Heck I know of three scouts who are in the process of finding a new troop after their original troop went to Trail's Life, and the current troop they are in has some challenges for the three Scouts.

 

What's the point? I don't see anything pro or neg about a one-unit concept.

 

Cub Scout packs really need to plan more variety as Cub Scouts lasts 4.5 to 5.5 years, depending on council. Boy Scouts says it has more variety than it really does. Over half the Boy Scout camp outs and activities are the same year after year.

[scoutergipper]

Intellectually, I understand and agree that more mentoring of Cub Scout Packs and their Leaders would be helpful to a better program and especially to growing the program. That's why I do it. However, there are only a handful of Boy Scout Adults (counting all of them, not just the ones who have Troop Leadership positions) who are the least bit interested in giving one minute beyond what they are currently doing in Scouting. Most of these leaders either don't understand why it's important, or just don't care enough about Scouting for it to matter whether it's better after their own son is out of the Troop.

 

The question is not whether it's a good idea for Troops to provide more support (it is), but how in the world to get them to do it? Most of the Troops in my area won't even return a phone call or email from the District Executive, much less take on new responsibilities on his say-so.

[fred johnson]

The question is not whether it's a good idea for Troops to provide more support (it is)' date=' but how in the world to get them to do it? Most of the Troops in my area won't even return a phone call or email from the District Executive, much less take on new responsibilities on his say-so.[/quote']

 

That's why I think the one-unit concept is good. It lets Boy Scout leaders focus on Boy Scouting and Cub Scout leaders focus on Cub Scouting while at the same time learning from each other.

 

[scoutergipper]

 

That's why I think the one-unit concept is good. It lets Boy Scout leaders focus on Boy Scouting and Cub Scout leaders focus on Cub Scouting while at the same time learning from each other.

 

This is kind of my point, Fred. If you told my Troop, "hey, you're now 'one unit' with the Pack at your Chartering Organization so that you can work together for the good of Scouting, the Pack and the Troop" most of my Adult Leaders would quit. If the one unit concept means less work for the Boy Scout Adults, they might support it. But I have yet to see you detail how it would be less work.

[Eagle94-A1]

Fred,

In regards to BS leaders mentoring CS leaders, when it does happen, I admit it is awesome. I know of three situations where, mostly because younger sons were involved, you do have that mentoring. But it is more work. The mentor, in addition to his BS duties, has to have some involvement with the CS pack, will have to do additional meetings to mentor, etc, etc. And all of that IS (emphasis) time consuming. Trust me, I’ve tried the mentoring bit as you well know, and I can tell you it is time consuming.

 

At least in my experience, there is a reason why CS leaders are not exposed to the BS program right away. 99% of the time, Cub Scout leaders are drawn from parents bringing their kids to a round up. They may have been Scouts as a youth, but nowadays probably were not. They are more concerned with creating the program that is expected of them and need to focus on that.

Currently, the Webelos-to- Scout transition is suppose to be the time when folks learn and understand the BS program. It is definitely a shock if not done correctly. But I will admit, even those of us who know better still have challenges with the change. For some, it’s not wanting to see their kids fail. For others, and I include myself in this, after 3-5 years (or in my case 6 years) the challenge is overcoming the training and conditioning of the CS program. And even in a Group unit set up, where the parents and CS leaders know the BS leaders very well, heck the CS leaders may very well be serving with the troop,you still have parents interfering, or worse, preventing their kids from enjoying all the benefits of the program by not allowing them to camp (that’s one problem I see right now with one of the scouts in my son’s patrol, Scout attends meetings, but does not camp b/c parents are worried about son).

 

In regards to group unit concept avoiding burn out, from my experiences I must respectfully disagree. In the current situation I know of, the ASM very reluctantly took over CM duties after several attempts to get a new CM. Hopefully this situation will resolve itself within the next 9 months as he was slated to take over as SM. And with this unit, with the exceptions of a few parents involved only in either the pack or troop, the bulk of the committee is for both units (I’m on the troop’s committee but not their pack’s, and there are a few pack parents who are not on the troop’s charter) .

 

Now I do like what that CO’s WDL/ASM is doing: scheduling part of his den meetings to include activities with the troop. That was done deliberately to A) to get them acclimated to the troop before Cross Over in December and B) to help reduce his stress at being a leader with both the pack and troop. And I do see the above as one way the group unit is a benefit.

 

In regards to program, in a group unit concept, there is an expectation of the Cub automatically moving to the troop, and not realizing other units are out there. I’ve seen instances where scouts are dissatisfied with a troop because it is not meeting their needs, and are shocked when I tell them they can look around at other troops as each is different. They are so use to Cub Scouts where the program is pretty standard and 90% of the packs follow. They do not realize that each troop plans their own events.

 

And while I agree, some troops do repeat the same activities over and over, I know in the cases I’ve been involved it’s because A) scheduling , B) troop resources and C) the PLC wants it that way. Troop growing up had to deal with 14+ different school calendars, and one SPL realized that those school calendars were basically the same year after year, so that the troop decided which weekends each month were best for the most number of people to camp. As to resources, only 5 Scouts in my son’s troop have true, I can carry on my back all day, backpacks. So obviously we had to make changes and use what was available: the troops has canoes so we did a canoe trip. And one thing the troop loves is fishing. So they have decided to do a fishing trip, and it’s turned into an annual event.

 

Quite different when you have CS books telling you Meeting 1, Meeting 2, Meeting 3 etc