How to deal with another Unit trying to subvert yours?

[perdidochas]

So the pack is holding a grudge about one kid crossing over and not liking the troop and this happened a few (3?) years ago? So the current Web 2 would have been wolves when this occured. When my son was a Wolf I did not pay attention to cross over politics but I would have been aware that there was a related troop. But either way it seem like this pack is really petty or there has been other things that have happened.

 

So no one in your troop has younger brothers in the pack?

 

Sorry, I didn't explain it well. The problem is with the WDL (who is the parent of a boy that was in the troop, up until the time his younger brother crossed over), who very much dislikes one of the committee members and me(an Assistant Scout Master). The three of us had at one time (when his oldest son, and my youngest son were Wolves) been pretty close friends. We had a falling out. After the falling out, he became a WDL for his younger son. Everything seemed to be going fine, and the Webelos were coming to crossover--they had camped with us in October, and attended our meetings. We had provided Den Chiefs for them (yes, one of them was the older brother). Then in February, the WDL started to tell people about how unaccommodating our troop was (and before that he had commented to one of our committee members about how he thought our troop wasn't disciplined enough). They all, but one, went to another troop across town (about a 45 minute drive). The one who joined us was a fairly new Webelos, and had not gotten AOL. Good kid, and I'm glad he decided to stay with us.

 

 

We have one or two scouts that do have younger brothers in the Pack. I don't think we have a problem with the Pack as a whole, just with their former WDL. We are working to strengthen the relationship.

 

[BadenP]

I agree with jptexas's Ideas and would add another. Have a cub parent night showing off your troops strengths and the fun the boys have. A lot of this is probably coming from false rumors being spread which you have to show the parents how false they are.

[fred johnson]

Fred what is the alternative? After this past weekend and seeing all the other great troops I really am feeling guilty for staying with my crummy troop for so long. My son is not getting Scouting. Now' date=' if he were a natural leader maybe he could be part of the solution, but he is not. So what is your suggestion? We stay in Tiger Cubs 6? My youngest is is a Webelos 1. How can obey the Scout Law and not inform the other parents of the huge deficiencies in the Troop? I cannot in good conscience recommend this troop to anyone unless what they want is high speed, low drag, troop method, do NOTHING PORs.[/quote']

 

 

KDD - The alternative is switch units at anytime that you are dissatisfied. Tigers, Wolves, Bears, Webelos, Scout, more senior scout, anytime.

 

The trouble is separating the younger and older programs is an arbitrary division that leaves packs starved for experience and pours salt on smaller issues until they fester into issues that threaten the troop and the future experiences for many kids.

 

It needs to be one unit similar to how UK and many other countries run it.

[Eagle94-A1]

"It needs to be one unit similar to how UK and many other countries run it."

 

Even in the UK, folks switch groups. I met one young lady who started out in one group. When she got her Queen's Scout, the group had a policy of having them look elsewhere to serve as a leader for whatever reason.

 

So she joined as a leader with a second group. Because that group was not as adventurous as the previous group she was in, nor as adventurous as what some of the scouts wanted in the second group, she ended up starting a 3rd group, taking 1/2 the second group and a portion of the original group with her.

[fred johnson]

Eagle94-A1 ... I am all for switching units if it is a bad match or you are looking for something else. But pitting groups against each other to survive is bad. It divides groups that could help each other and creates needless animosity.

[Eagle94-A1]

Fred,

 

Agree with you 100% on units helping each other. And as I have stated elsewhere I do not care what uniot a person joins or transfer too, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IN A UNIT (emphasis, not shouting). Either we can work on the unit meeting your needs, or we can help find another unit that will meet your needs.

 

I've found that most times its the adults getting the "us versus them" attitude. A friend of mine left my pack to start one at his church because his pastor and others asked him to. He kept it quiet that he was leaving because he didn't to destroy the existing pack. Unfortunately when word did get around, about 1/2 the existing pack decided to follow him. It was the CM and CC that had the hard feeling and developed the "us vs. them" attitude, and it took several years for the CC and my friend to be on a speaking basis.

 

Another example of adults having the "us vs. them" attitude was at one RU, we had every pack's dream leader show up: fully trained leader in both DL and CM positions who has just moved to the area and is lookign for a pack for his sons to join. After talking to him, I found out A) he's fully trained and B) he goes to the church where my friend started the new pack which needed experienced leaders. So I introduced him to my friend across the room, and he joins that pack. My CM was ticked because I sent him to the other pack.

 

Now what's funny is this: now that the folks with the "us vs. them" attitude are no longer involved, both packs have a great relationship. They have actually sent Cubs to us who were not happy with them for whatever reason, and vice-versa. At district and council events where campsites are assigned and crowded, we generally end up together and have some joint campfires.

[Eagle94-A1]

Forgot to add, that is how Scouting is suppose to be.

[fred johnson]

... removed comments based on trusting the explanation provided below. ...

 

Starting a new pack ... yeah, that's how scouting works.

 

But troop shopping is NOT how scout works. Scouting is about learning to work with people.

 

In this case, BSA has parents competing to re-recruit scouts in the best interest of their own kids. Friendships are going to get broken. People are going to get offended. People are going to be damaged

 

It's not the fault of the people getting offended. It's a structural defect in the BSA program.

[Eagle94-A1]

Fred,

 

When I said he kept it quiet, I meant to the parents and Cubs of the pack, not the CM and CC. Shortly after he made the decision, he informed the CM and CC that he was apporached by the pastor and several church members to restart the pack and troop at his church. He told them that he will be starting from scratch, and not trying to "steal" anyone from the pack. He did not try to recruit anyone from the pack to join his.That was in May/June, with enough time to get a replacement leader for him. Initially only him and his son left.

 

The new pack became known in September. My pack was having some issues (the CM at the time is the current SM of the troop I've discussed), and when folks got frustrated, they looked to his pack since A) they knew him and B) His pack was doing things and was organized. So by December, 1/2 the folks left. With last minute cancellations of pack meetings, no awards to hand out, etc, I was even tempted to leave.

 

Reason they were angry was again they viewed the pack as "competition" when in all honesty there was none.

[Eagle94-A1]

To add, the reason for my friend's silence to the Cubs and parents are for the same reasons I asked my son not to discuss which troop he was joining until the very last possible moment: to not create any problems and not destroy any units. I've seen what can happen when there is bad blood between a CO's pack and troop leaders. I've seen a troop fold, and eventually the pack as well.

 

I do not ever want to be accused of subverting a unit, and I think I have shown that with everything I have done to try and help the CO's troop out over the past 3 years.

 

I have scheduled IOLS training around their schedule so that their leaders could get the training they need, only to be told "It's too cold to camp," and only 1 person showing up. And then later I get lectured on how IOLS should be offered all the time in our district, that folks should not have to drive and hour or more away to another district to get the training. And that if we do not have enough staff to offer IOLS all the time, we need to hire folks to teach it. I have recruited for the troop, only to see those new scouts dropp out after 3 months.

 

I have listened to the scouts complain about how the program is running, and being told once they get Eagle, they are gone. I have talked to scouts who transferred to another troop, and my own, complain about the troops MB and Eagle focused program and lack of camping. I have had parents contacting me privately asking if my son was joining the troop and I was becoming an ASM, only to transfer out when I responded in the negative.

 

I have asked my son not to mention ALL of the reasons HE (emphasis) decided not to join the troop ("adults do too much", SM's son "is a bully and causes too much trouble", "they keep cancelling camp outs, I want a troop that goes camping") and instead state the scheduling conflict and that he has freinds in his current unit (which are true BTW).

 

I have tried to counsel and mentor the SM on why folks are leaving, only to be told I need to adapt Scouting to modern times. Heck, I've gone so far as to stay overnight with the troop, when everyone in the unit left the camp Saturday night,except the SM's son and 1 scout so that there would be 2 deep leadership. I was planning on going home with my family when I discovered that situation.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

To get somewhat back to the original poster's question. You need to establish a relationship with your pack. I can tell you some ways NOT to establish a healthy relationship.

 

1) You do not communicate with the pack's leadership. How can a pack know about you when you do not communicate with them? Facebook is a good tool, but face to face contact via visits and roundtables are best way to communicate.

 

2) You do not skip events or activities that Webelos will be at. If you do not go to district or council camporees where Webelos are invited to attend, are announced in advance, and many Webelos dens place into their yearly schedule, do not be surprised if they decide to go to another troop that they met at such an event.

 

2A) You do not need to make your pack's leader BEG (emphasis) you to invite the Webelos to camp with you IF you do go to such an eventa event. You would think a troop would be happy to get a Webelos den to go camping with them, especially when the patrols get bonus points in the competition for having Webelos present. But on 2 occasions that has happened. One time the Webelos did camp with them, the second time, the WDL got tired of begging and waiting for a response, and accepted another troop's invitation to camp with them. Then the SM was surprised when the WDL said he had already made arrangements when the SM returned the phone call 2 days before the event.

 

3) You do not give a week and a half to two weeks advance notice for your Webelos Overnighter. With folks' busy schedules, you need to invite folks to an overnighter at least a month, if not more, to an overnight campout.

 

4) You do not provide Scouts as Den Chiefs or day camp staff that are immature, irresponsible, and cause enough problems that you send the scouts home.

 

5) You do not invite Webelos to a troop meeting a month before they Cross Over and pressure them into joining your troop. Unfortunately I didn't attend that event due to scheduling conflicts, but several parents, and one Cub, told me they felt pressured into joining them.

 

6) You do not take over a pack's Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies and turn the event into a last minute troop Court of Honor without telling the pack's leadership well in advance. It ticked off folks who were told the ceremonies would last a certain time, and then find out they are expected to stay longer than they were told due to the troop putting on a COH that none of the Cub leaders or parent were told about until that day. Unfortunately we did have several families pick up and leave after the pack was finished because of other commitments.

 

6A) Having someone drive to the Scout office before they close on a Saturday to pick up the troop's advancements for a COH that night does not give a good impression of the troop's organization to prospective new Scouts and their parents.

[ParkMan]

I was a Cubmaster for many years and now have moved on to my son's troop. I now sit on the troop committee and still sit on the pack's committee.

 

My only recommendation for you is to work to build a bridge to the pack. Visit their leader's meetings. Visit their pack meetings. Get to know the leaders. Odds are that they are a bunch of dedicated volunteers just trying to make it work. There may have been a problem in the past, but work to get past it.

 

When you talk to the pack people really listen to them. Most really don't understand boy scouts - but also do not want to be told "just wait" or "trust us". Instead, find a way to show them what you're trying to do. Expose them to some role models within the troop, etc. Invest in them. As a bonus, most of those cub leaders will later become boy scout leaders. The better your relationship with them, the more likely they are to be leaders in your troop.

[boomerscout]

Are there any newspapers where you live? Publicity involving children is freely available if you take the pix and write the captions and then email it to the paper. Here's troop ###, sponsored by xxx, enjoying the war canoes at Scout Camp Whatsit. Here's the Scouts of Troop ###, sponsored by xxx, helping little old ladies across the street - well, I hope you get the idea. Show Scouts camping, troop community service projects, and so on. Get your name out to the community at large rather than trying the closed shop approach.

 

When potential applicants inquire give them your logical and well thought printed handout on what boylead means, why it is necessary, and why it's almost always been a part of Scouting. Close the article with the admonition not to buy any camping equipment at this time, or a uniform either. Encourage the no obligation trial for the first couple of weeks

[fred johnson]

I was a Cubmaster for many years and now have moved on to my son's troop. I now sit on the troop committee and still sit on the pack's committee.

 

My only recommendation for you is to work to build a bridge to the pack. Visit their leader's meetings. Visit their pack meetings. Get to know the leaders. Odds are that they are a bunch of dedicated volunteers just trying to make it work. There may have been a problem in the past, but work to get past it.

 

When you talk to the pack people really listen to them. Most really don't understand boy scouts - but also do not want to be told "just wait" or "trust us". Instead, find a way to show them what you're trying to do. Expose them to some role models within the troop, etc. Invest in them. As a bonus, most of those cub leaders will later become boy scout leaders. The better your relationship with them, the more likely they are to be leaders in your troop.

 

 

You are hitting at the exact reason I tend to believe packs and troops need to be "one unit". To do precisely address what you wrote.

[CNYScouter]

I am with fred johnson with the idea that packs and troops need to be one unit. A few years ago when I was DC we had a pack that was down to 4 W2's and was ready to fold. I was contacted by a Troop about it as this was their primary feeder Pack and didn't want to see this fold. I suggested that Troop Committee take over the Pack and get things going again. They didn't actually do this but got an ASM to become Cubmaster and the SM's wife became the CC and they began to rebuild the Pack. When I ended up joining the Pack 2 years later it had grown to 25+ and it has grown every year since doing this.