How to deal with another Unit trying to subvert yours?

[kenundrum]

Hello,

I'm wondering if I could get some opinions on an issue that has been troubling my troop for the past few years and now appears to have been substantiated as facts rather than simple gossip or miscommunications.

The cub scout pack in my town has had not the best relationship with our troop in the past few years because they don't approve of the level of boy-lead program we have. We're around a 7 or 8 on the boy led scale, everything is effectively run by the boys and the adults facilitate actual booking of trip locations, etc. We recently even switched to the boys proposing a budget and presenting to the committee. The people in charge of the cub scout pack are looking for something that is more structured around the adult decisions it seems. Their son was in our troop for about a year and decided to take him to another troop because it wasn't working out with the mom hovering over everything.

Ever since then, the relations with the pack took a nosedive. They actively refused to have their kids participate in activities that we invited them to and conveniently "forgot" to hand out flyers we gave them. When we were able to actually make a quick presentation to the Webelos parents, they were not even aware there was a boy scout troop in our town- even though we meet in the same building on the same night!

Long story short, recently someone on our committee bumped into an adult leader of the pack at a supermarket where they witnessed that person talking to a friend and their son about scouting. They were told straight out that there was no boy scout troop in town and that is why they sent their kids to a troop in a different town. Our committee member interrupted at that point and clarified that the troop had been in continuous operation for over 70 years which left everyone speechless apparently.

Anyway- what can we do about this? I know that people have a right to their opinion, but outright lies are going a little too far. If the behavior was them telling people they didn't approve of our troop's management, that would be something valid. Is there something that can be done? I'm preparing to write an official letter to our council representatives to ask for advice or action on this situation, but what can they really do?

Thanks

 

A Scoutmaster

[jpstodwftexas]

What you can do...

BE Cordial.......Invite other Packs to your Events.

 

BE Seen .........The troop can make sure it is Seen by Helping at all Council/District Events. Never seen never heard never Works.

 

BE Known........Have a Strong Social Media. Communication is a Strong point. Share the Scouting Experience. There is no Better way to influence a Young Scouter and his Family than Showing them you do things than with pictures. Talk is Cheap however a Pictures say More.

 

Be Proud....Share through communications Advancements, Awards, Event Participation and anything the troop does

[qwazse]

It's like I have an evil twin.

 

Question ... do any of your boys want to be den chiefs?

 

I think you know where I'm going with this.

[fred johnson]

Welcome to BSA where units are damaged and relations fractured by the Webelos transition. What the original poster describes is common.

 

In this case, the division between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts isolates the leaders. So the very good initiative by the Boy Scout troop looks alien and bad to the Cub Scout parents. If it was one unit, the Cub Scout leaders would learn, be aware and able to grow to support the Boy Scout leader initiative.

 

There is nothing your council can do.

 

Talk to your district exec for advice, but that's about it. This is between the unit leaders.

[Stosh]

If the only PR one is doing for the troop is flyers and activities for a single pack, there's going to be a problem. The troop that is unknown in a community is not doing its part to be first and foremost in getting out and getting seen. If your community has a Memorial Day parade, you're unit needs to be there, same for the ceremony at the end.

 

Look for opportunities to be visible in the community. Sell popcorn in front of the grocery store, not to sell popcorn, but to advertise scouting to people going in and out. Put your fliers with a big BSA logo on it on every community board you can find. Small town celebrations? volunteer to clean up. Do news releases for everything newsworthy your troop does.

 

If you are relying only on some Cub pack to guarantee your future, you surely aren't going to have one.

 

Stosh

 

If this sounds a bit harsh, just remember, you can't do anything to change someone else's behavior, but you have complete control over your own.

[SSScout]

I like all the advice so far given. Being visible and known. Does your CO have a sign out front saying "Home of Cub Pack , Scout Troop,"?

I would be "Trustworthy,, courteous,, and kind..." Do not stoop to their level.

Make sure the invitations to your activities still go out to your local Cub Packs. Only one in town, really? Again, play nice! . If the invitations are "forgotten", make sure to politely remind folks about them. The DE will have a list of the Webelos leaders (assuming the Packs are playing by the rules), you can contact them directly, along with the other Pack leaders. Do you have a Commissioner ? Perhaps he could make presentations and reminders to the Pack at B&G dinners, or PWDerby...

I will assume the schools (elementary and middle?) are neighborhood schools? Approach the principal and /or the Counseling office about posters, flyers, backpack notices. Each school district has its own rules about when/how/disclaimers, etc.

 

Keep on doing what you do best.... Let the Scouts be Scouts. And let the helicopters fly elsewhere...

[fred johnson]

This is what happens when you divide groups and have them compete against each other. Not everyone is going to play nice. Even when they play nice, a few words exaggerated or overly emphasized can cause misunderstandings and create grudges.

 

BSA makes people choose between groups and often groups where they have friends in each group.

 

Imagine being confirmed in your faith at 14 and then being told to go choose between Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical, etc. It's already ugly enough when people stay within their own faith. Now make churches compete for the same members that they just raised. It would get ugly.

 

BSA has a really bad program design in the Webelos transition.

[King Ding Dong]

Fred what is the alternative? After this past weekend and seeing all the other great troops I really am feeling guilty for staying with my crummy troop for so long. My son is not getting Scouting. Now, if he were a natural leader maybe he could be part of the solution, but he is not. So what is your suggestion? We stay in Tiger Cubs 6? My youngest is is a Webelos 1. How can obey the Scout Law and not inform the other parents of the huge deficiencies in the Troop? I cannot in good conscience recommend this troop to anyone unless what they want is high speed, low drag, troop method, do NOTHING PORs.

[Stosh]

KDD: The traditions in BSA make it very difficult to be flexible on the part of making choices. This pack's cubs always go to this troop. PERIOD. No exceptions. That might be the case in a very small town. But like churches, troops are all different. They have different emphasis, different personalities and different goals for the boys. Although not well known, the boys and their parents can pick any troop they wish to join. It is important to shop around so one has an idea of what's available.

 

Be prepared to have your Web I boy select the poor troop because his older brother or his friends all want to go there. Otherwise, be prepared to have boys in two different troops. I have had that happen many times where families have boys in two different troops. This will occur more frequently when it is obvious to the boys the difference between adult-led and boy-led programs. Some boys like the adult-led, sit back and slide through to Eagle kinds of programs and then there are a few that prefer the roll up your sleeves and have to struggle to make things happen kind of program that they are expected to come up with.

 

Just make sure both boys know they can do what they decide to do. I know that troop shopping is frowned on by some, but how else is one to make an informed decision without checking out the product in the first place?

 

Stosh

[CalicoPenn]

Be subversive yourself - in a positive way by making yourself visible to the members of the Pack. How? Here's a suggestion - in October, at the end of their Pack meeting, and without announcing it to anyone in the Pack (make it a surprise), have your Troop set up outside between the building and the parking lot to hand out Dutch Oven Cobbler to all. Give recruiting information about the Troop directly to the Webelos and their parents. That's your Troop meeting plan for the night - while they're inside, you're outside prepping and cooking cobbler in the parking lot.

 

When you contact the DE, don't complain that the Pack is being uncooperative, just ask him for the mailing address of all of the Webelos in the Pack and then mail them a packet of information about the Troop - include in that packet a short description about the means and methods of Boy Scouts so that the parents can understand why the Troop is more Boy-led and less Adult-led. If your budget can handle it, follow up by mailing all the Webelos on the list a Boy Scout Handbook as a holiday present in December, with a big Compliments of Troop XXX sticker on the inside cover or fly page (don't call it a Christmas present unless you know that ALL of the Webelos are Christians).

 

As the year progresses, come up with ways to make sure you're always visible to the members of the Pack - on nights when the Pack is meeting, don't squirrel yourselves away in a room somewhere - try to figure out excuses to just happen to be outside when the Pack is leaving for the night - running an orienteering course, running tent set up relay races, try to do things that are Scout related rather than just an extended recess where the Scouts just toss a ball around. You want the Cub Scouts to be looking over and seeing how much fun is being had and the parents looking over and seeing how much learning is being done.

 

 

You have to market the Troop a bit - be creative and have fun doing it.

[CalicoPenn]

I just thought of something else you could do that doesn't take money, just a little time - and can be rotated amongst the boys - on Pack Meeting nights, station a couple of Boy Scouts in full uniform - merit badge sashes and all - the full bling - at the front doors to open them for everyone that comes in - just being courteous and all and doing a good turn daily.

[perdidochas]

Hello,

I'm wondering if I could get some opinions on an issue that has been troubling my troop for the past few years and now appears to have been substantiated as facts rather than simple gossip or miscommunications.

The cub scout pack in my town has had not the best relationship with our troop in the past few years because they don't approve of the level of boy-lead program we have. We're around a 7 or 8 on the boy led scale, everything is effectively run by the boys and the adults facilitate actual booking of trip locations, etc. We recently even switched to the boys proposing a budget and presenting to the committee. The people in charge of the cub scout pack are looking for something that is more structured around the adult decisions it seems. Their son was in our troop for about a year and decided to take him to another troop because it wasn't working out with the mom hovering over everything.

Ever since then, the relations with the pack took a nosedive. They actively refused to have their kids participate in activities that we invited them to and conveniently "forgot" to hand out flyers we gave them. When we were able to actually make a quick presentation to the Webelos parents, they were not even aware there was a boy scout troop in our town- even though we meet in the same building on the same night!

Long story short, recently someone on our committee bumped into an adult leader of the pack at a supermarket where they witnessed that person talking to a friend and their son about scouting. They were told straight out that there was no boy scout troop in town and that is why they sent their kids to a troop in a different town. Our committee member interrupted at that point and clarified that the troop had been in continuous operation for over 70 years which left everyone speechless apparently.

Anyway- what can we do about this? I know that people have a right to their opinion, but outright lies are going a little too far. If the behavior was them telling people they didn't approve of our troop's management, that would be something valid. Is there something that can be done? I'm preparing to write an official letter to our council representatives to ask for advice or action on this situation, but what can they really do?

Thanks

 

A Scoutmaster

 

Things like that do happen. We had a WDL in our COR's Pack that intensely disliked a few of the troop adult leaders. He not only lead most of his Webelos to a pack across town, he made many disparaging statements about our troop in talking to other parents, some of which are untruths. His oldest son was in our troop for several years, and when his younger son was about to cross over, he started this crap. Thankfully, we have a good reputation, so while we lost his group of crossovers, we have gotten enough crossovers from other packs to keep us going. It's sad, because the COR's Pack is a decent pack, and we missed their boys.

[Sidney Porter]

So the pack is holding a grudge about one kid crossing over and not liking the troop and this happened a few (3?) years ago? So the current Web 2 would have been wolves when this occured. When my son was a Wolf I did not pay attention to cross over politics but I would have been aware that there was a related troop. But either way it seem like this pack is really petty or there has been other things that have happened.

 

So no one in your troop has younger brothers in the pack?

[ScoutNut]

When we were able to actually make a quick presentation to the Webelos parents, they were not even aware there was a boy scout troop in our town- even though we meet in the same building on the same night!

 

They were told straight out that there was no boy scout troop in town and that is why they sent their kids to a troop in a different town. Our committee member interrupted at that point and clarified that the troop had been in continuous operation for over 70 years which left everyone speechless apparently.

 

This struck me as the main problem.

 

After 70 YEARS -

 

None of the families in your town, with Scout aged children, know that your Troop exists.

 

You meet at the same time/place as the Cub Scout Pack yet none of the families even know your Troop exists.

 

How/why is that? Boy Scouts is not a secret organization. What kind of community service, if any, are you doing? How do you advertise your presence in the community (both Scouting, and local)?

 

How can their Cub Scouts, pass your Boy Scouts, in/around the building you both use, and still be ignorant of the Troop's existence?

 

Who is your Charter Organization? Since you share facilities with the Cub Pack, do you also share a Charter Organization? Do you know who your Charter Organization Representative (COR) is?

 

It seems that the problem is NOT just with "lies" being told to Pack families.

 

You need to work - HARD - at repairing / creating the face your Troop shows to the world at large.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit, so please bear with me.

 

What have you done for the pack lately? Are you sending them Den Chiefs? How about physcially going to a few meetings and inviting them personally instead of flyers? Does your CO have any events that you do that will not only promote the troop, give visibility to the public AND provide service as a thank you to the CO? Are there any public events, especially ones that may get photos in the paper, that can be done Like assisting the American Legion, or whoever in your area does it, put out flags on graves for Memorial Day? Do you do any joint activities?

 

I ask because it can be said by some that I am subverting the troop my pack's CO charters with the one my son belongs to and I am a committee member for. How can I be accused of subverting the troop? Because I am going to invite them to visit my son's troop at the district camporee because the CO's troop is not going again this year. Because after begging the troop to provide den chiefs over several years, I am willing to recommend that when the next offer for DCs comes from one troop with no pack ( and it's not my son's troop either) we take them up on the offer.

 

I am not trying to subvert this troop. As I have posted elsewhere I helped get the troop started, and when the new leadership took over bent over backwards trying to help them out, along with a host of other scouters. I have recruited for the troop, despite my better judgement, and those kids quit within 3 months. Out of the 5 Scouts from my old den who joined them, 1 quit within 3 months, 1 transferred to my son's troop in 5 months, and 1 has not been heard from since May. Only 2 of my guys remain with them.

 

Now for a little history. My son's troop was in a very similar situation about 10 years ago. There was a major disagreement between the Cub Scout leaders and Boy Scout leaders. It destroyed the troop first, and eventually the pack. When both the pack and troop were reformed, the COR/CC wanted to make sure that A) the rift between the pack and troop does not happen again, and B) The troop is never accused of "poaching" other packs. In fact the COR/CC and I had a discussion after one BOR recently about the situation in the other troop, and made darn sure that give the other troop every single opportunity to recruit from my pack. BUT if we are going to lose the scouts altogether, then invite them to visit us and other troops.

 

Now the troop and pack does have "joint" meetings on occassion. Three come immediately to mind. The Christmas party is a joint meeting with both CS and BS awards being given out. Also any Webelos ready to Cross Over do so .Blue and Gold Banquet is a joint activity, specifically birthday party/pack meeting/COH And again if any Webelos is ready to Cross Over, it's done.Finally the pack's last meeting of the school year is also a joint pack meeting/COH.

 

Also when the Pack and troop do the community service projects, specifically Scouting for Food and Memorial Day Flags, they are inseparable, working together to do the same areas as a team.

 

More later