A conclusion

[le Voyageur]

As I see it, those of us adults who serve on campstaffs should be the first line of defense when it comes to safety. Being entrusted with someone's son is an awesome responsiblity that must not be takened lightly. Also, it is much easier for an older adult to challenge the authority of both the Camp Director and the Program Director when it comes to questionable activities where safety is starting to slide.

Three years ago I shut down a C.O.P.E. course that should of been shut down at least two years prior to my taking the job. That course is still shut down to day...needless to say, this Council lucked out without getting anyone hurt.

For this incident that resulted in the loss of a young life, all I can do is extend my heartfelt sorrow to this family. As to Shooting Sports Directors, Program Directors still using signalling cannons (thunder mugs), I strongly suggest using preloaded cartridges with the correct measure of powder, and never allow a scout to load directly from the can....

[evmori]

We use a small breech load cannon at camporees to signal station changes & for flag ceremonies. The only people allowed to use the cannon are qualified adults.

 

A blessed Christmas to all!

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

Rooster, what no diatribe about accidents being the work of God?

 

BW, I like your example. When I was going through my ordeal for OA we were led around in silence, in the dark through the trails at one of our council camps. For those of you who went through the ordeal, you know the drill. Well I was about 50th in line of a single file line of about 80 adults and youth. As I'm walking quietly, five feet behind the one in front of me my shin strikes something. After we come to an area and are allowed to sit I roll up my pant leg and find a bloody mess. Well comes the night where we sleep under the stars and the next morning in the light of day I see a big mess on my left leg. Not much to be done except keep it clean. After the camp medical "officer" blanches when I show it to her she cleans it up. Later I wander over to where it happened I see that there was some new construction about fifty feet away from our path but right in the path way sticking up about 18 inches was a steel reinforcing rod. My shin hit it just right so that it scraped it good. Four months later I'm thankful I have not had an infection (at that for summer camp my doctor gave me a tetanus shot) but I still have a lump and ghastly discoloration. One can argue about the placement of the rod, the intelligence of walking around at night in the dark, yadda, yadda, yadda, but when a group of volunteers get together like BW mentioned, much safety precautions just fall through the crack. Yes, some of the OA activities have some real safety challenged folks!

 

 

[scoutingagain]

Ok I'll come down off my horse. As a safety and health professional I'll admit to being a little sensitive towards attitudes towards safety. I need to develop a thicker skin. But I can tell you there are extremely dangerous activities conducted, resulting in few or no accidents that are the result of commitment on the part of leadership, commitment on the part of those executing the activity, planning, training and discipline.

 

Rooster, I agree with your post. But "reasonable" cost/benefit or risk/benefit analysis must be done at both ends. It is my understanding the benefit of this cannon was to produce a loud, inspirational noise in ceremonies. The method chosen to achieve this involved a youth handling explosive material. Is this a reasonable benefit for the risks that are incurred? It appears others have examined this process and developed ways to achieve the same effect without the same level of risk.

 

This is what safety is about. Not arbitrarily stopping work or activities but comming up with solutions to allow reasonable activities to proceed without undue risk.

 

Let's use this tragic accident as a reminder to recommit to examining how we plan our activities and to conduct them as safely as possible.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to get off the horse only to get on the soapbox.

 

SA

[Rooster7]

Rooster, what no diatribe about accidents being the work of God?

 

I venture to say that most accidents are probably not the work of God. Why would you assume otherwise?

[dsteele]

The accident is a terrible thing for all concerned.

 

I'm not much for cannons at flag ceremonies -- they always make me jump, even though I know what's coming. That's just a personal preference of mine.

 

I don't think we'll see cannons banned from the Boy Scouts of America because of this accident. It won't surprise me, on the other hand, if some basic rules for their use were to come as a result of the accident. Several reasonable rules have been mentioned in this thread.

 

I'm not big on rules, but I am big on common sense.

 

If the cannon blew up because it had not been properly maintained or was in poor condition -- we need some guidelines to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again.

 

If the problem was that it was loaded by an untrained person -- we ought to train anyone who loads a cannon in how to do it properly. Perhaps two people ought to be required -- one to load and the other to check the charge.

 

My point is that, for example, we have had kids drown at Scout camp in our history. We did not ban the lake, we came up with rules: swim tests, buddy checks, etc.

 

Although the proper shoulder tab color for the uniforms of the safety patrol has been discussed -- their favorite plan was red on the left shoulder and green on the right -- but those were already taken -- nothing was ever decided. They didn't like my suggestion of "Hunter's safety" because they've already limiited hunting to Venturers. JUST KIDDING about the shoulder loops. Not kidding about the hunting.

 

DS

[Fuzzy Bear]

A few years ago at Philmont, a young Scout fell from the side of a cliff overlooking one of the lakes. I was standing across the lake gazing at the beauty. They didn't shut down the camp, the area or stop the hiking.

 

To this day, I cannot get the agonized scream of the Scoutmaster out of my head that followed.

 

I don't have an answer about safety. The BSA tries. FB

 

[peewee]

no one wants to get hurt-- accidents happen, no one plans to have an accident(unless they want to collect from thier ins. co.)--A LITTLE HUMOR--- they say hind sight is 20/20 they can look back and say they should have done this instead -- in a split second, something happens and you end up with a life long memory of regret or guilt.My good friend walked through a cloud of smoke fighting a strucure on a roof, fell 20ft to the ground (striking me on the way down) he broke his neck recovered months later--hind sight said never walk upright through smoke , we train on that reg. --a laps of common sense - judgement error, poor timing (for him and me)-- we need everyone to think about safety -- FOG writes about needing hard hats during a flag raiseing - he got alot of replies from that and got alot of folks thinking about safety issues. next time when your riding in a camp bus full of scouters, thats 20yrs old not able to be lic., traveling 15mph on a road full of potholes thats passing boys on either side of the road-- ask yourself what should I do? RM

[Fat Old Guy]

I had written a rambling piece wondering how could a cannon loaded with a blank charge could blow up because there's nothing to contain the pressure. I then went out and found an article about the incident and found that it wasn't a blank charge, they were firing a projectile, a film canister partially filled with sand. Why?

 

I don't know much about cannons, why on earth would they put a projectile in it?

 

 

[scoutldr]

Aye, FOG, there's the rub. We "safety geeks" don't go around thinking up ways to kill your fun. We go around trying to think of all the ways people can be stupid and then try to engineer the process so that they can't make that choice. As a former boss of mine once said, we have to educate the "defiantly ignorant." Everyone agrees that fireworks are not allowed in camp...why in the world would a black powder cannon be acceptable? We never had a cannon at my camp. I still had a good time and didn't grow up warped. OK, well I had a good time, anyway.

 

 

[NWScouter]

All cannons need something to contain the pressure to make the boom. Most use wadding, something like a bunch of patches used in black powder guns. Getting hit by the wadding isnt fun either. About twenty years ago a women got hit in the leg by the wadding at Seattle Bastille day celebration (why we had one I dont know). She lost her leg and with the settlement she started a bar named Shellys Leg. It became the most famous gay bar in town. I dont think that Seattle is letting any one shoot off a cannon in the streets now.

[Eqeq]

I would first question that the youth over charged the cannon. Was there a previous charge that had not been ignighted? So his was, unknown to him, the second charge? Metal fatigues and gets invisible little cracks. Old firearms should be x-rayed to see if they are still serviceable. Where was this cannon aimed? The film canister was not the best idea. This horrible incident brings up the whole topic of scout safety. From what I have seen the no pointing things no laser tag rule is a feel good measure that does not accomplish boy scout goals.

 

Many of the cub scouting events I have been at felt like running the gauntlet of unsafety. Not unlike other youth events like for church and 4H. It seems like the event is not complete unless they have handed 7 year old's long pointed sticks, walked them along the side of a busy non sidewalked road, and had them clamber up a danger rock slide. 7 year olds do not really know where the needle they used to string popcorn ended up. How many were lost in the school cafeteria? The camp bus someone mentioned traveling with scouts walking on both sides of a pot holed road is an excellent example. This for me means that I have to be involved to protect my scout and any others I can prevent from danger. You have heard of uniform police. I feel like safty police. Nobody can take as good care of our childen as us ourselves. We can be there to grab the child out of the way as the bus passes. To unplug one end of the electrical cord before they toss the next into the pool. To keep the scouts away from the kerosean soaked fire pit. And to reremind them don't cut with your knife unless others are safe from your movements. Nobody else can do that job as well as a parent. A scout leader only has 2 eyes and multiple duties. As the scout gets older they learn on their own to stay away from most dangerous situations. Would you rather have a child in an Easter egg hunt where the person in charge says, "There are enough eggs for everyone. 1st grade and under walk first. In 2 minuites 2nd grade walk." Or "Run!"

 

Safety needs to be a bigger part of the scouting I have seen. Not the Rules Rules Rules safety but the use your head and think Safety.

 

For the "dangerous" activities I know they are following the rules (BB and archery). It its the safe activities (walking down the summer camp road) I worry about.

[Fat Old Guy]

"ll cannons need something to contain the pressure to make the boom. Most use wadding, something like a bunch of patches used in black powder guns."

 

Wadding I know about. I'm just baffled why they'd use a projectile given how dangerous wadding can be. The actor John Erik Hexum was killed by a "blank" cartridge.

 

I have a feeling that there is much that isn't being told.

 

"We "safety geeks" don't go around thinking up ways to kill your fun."

 

Sure you do. It seems like you an yours use one incident to start making new rules, especially in today's lawsuit happy society.

[packsaddle]

Seems like something in G2SS should already cover this. Either the wording about fireworks or the wording about firearms should fit the use of a black powder cannon. How about a carbide cannon? They make lots of noise and there's no projectile.

[purcelce]

Cannons at Camp...

 

Back when I was a youth, on Camp Staff at Camp RCM, we had a small cannon. A few of us from Scout Craft used the cannon to take over the nature lodge....