laziness in Youth Leaders?

[EagleScouter2010]

Hi everyone. I came to the forums for similar help a couple years ago, but now I have some new issues coming up in the troop.

 

The troop has 20+ boys (most active), a dad stepped up recently as SM to fill a void, and I am the only ASM with any experience. Our COR is former SM, though.

 

We are attempting to have 3 patrols, mostly mixed age. The real problem comes from us not having any good PL's. Troop has 1 Eagle age 16 that I am going to rely on to be the unofficial SPL/"Guy in Charge". At Summer Camp, SM and I realized we have no boys willing to run as SPL for the troop. This isn't a terrible problem until you realize only one boy wants to be a PL (though the boy is not very popular among his peers). BUT, before the next election the boys hold, I want to get the current PL's to stop complaining and actually do something. In the past, boys have committed and backed out on planning, so I made the stupid decision to save the program. 10 boys are 11 yr-old, another 10 are 12-15. We have two former SPL (one Eagle) 16 yr. old. I have told both former and current SPLs that I am disappointed with how they handled the position, and I'd like to see them try working with PL's to get PL input from patrols. None came close to listening to me or other adult leaders. However, the Eagle we have is more mature and capable to fill an SPL-like role. I asked him if he would consider another term as SPL to get things running again, but he would prefer Instructor. (If he just doesn't want the title, then great, I can give him SPL tasks as well without him minding).

 

Okay, anyway, I recently had to chat with the oldest PL and his best friend SPL about their attitudes. They complain non-stop about how adults do everything, and I try to explain that I have been asking them to bring me things for months and got nothing. They make excuses and try to say "you don't help us" but I can assure you that a recent talk with the CC proves otherwise. I have even gone as far as to make blank templates for the boys to fill in. Nothing seems to work. When I talked to them this time, I made sure PL's mother was present. Though, when I called her a mother, she corrected me that she is a leader, not a mother (I am so thankful for leaders like her). This leader and I were trying to tell the two boys that what they are doing hardly constitutes leadership and we expect a change. I even bluffed that I would not approve their 4/6-month leadership terms required for Life or Eagle if they didn't improve. (I only say bluff because I doubt there is anything I can do as long as the boy wears the patch on his shoulder for the appropriate amount of time). I told the two that even though they may get Eagle before they learn to lead, they will literally have been given Eagle. I said that I have seen enough boys get Eagle and leave with barely any trace of Scouting in them, and I would like to see these two do better. I tried encouraging them with the "I know you can do it" approach, but they still just complain. I know both have very strong opinions on what they want the troop to be like, but neither will act. (Though I do have to stop them when they make comments about not wanting female leadership at all, and other similar comments).

 

My last comment to the two was that I will not re-register in a troop that allows non-scout-like behavior to push a boy into Eagle. I am very much at a loss on what to do anymore. I am now waiting to see if my last talk had an impact, but I'd like to ask your opinions on what to do if this does or does not help.

 

*as a side note, one leader is very active to the point he doesn't want boys to teach NSP since he does it fine himself....granted, he does a great job, I can't convince him that he is overstepping his role. I would like a suggestion before I have to take this to the committee.*

 

Thank you for your advice,

EagleScouter2010

[Hedgehog]

The most powerful tool you have at your disposal is the ability to ask questions to the youth leaders. "What do you think you need to do to be effective?" "What can I and the SM do to support you?" "What would you like to do this year?" "What do you need to do to get that done?" "What is the best way I can help you accomplish that?" The moment you start talking, lecturing and making threats, the boys will throw up a wall and just hear "wat wa wat wa, wat wa" like in the old Peanuts cartoons. They are put in a position where they have to do what you say. If you ask questions, you are guiding them to think about the situation and come up with their own ideas and solutions. They take ownership and become responsible. Ultimately, do you want to teach them to implement what others want or to take charge and come up with their own ideas and solutions?

[EagleScouter2010]

@Hedgehog: Part of the problem here is that we are trying to back off as much as possible but they will not take the opportunity. When asked what they want to do, they have a whole list "apparently." I told them to come up with a plan for the trip and the response from SPL was "I already showed you everything and you did nothing." I later found out that SPL thought another younger PL had given me plans they apparently made. I told SPL I have nothing and have seen nothing. Hopefully these plans really do exist, because this would not be the first time they have flat out lied about their work to several leaders including me. I completely understand and agree with the method you mentioned above, however, I'm wondering how much of it is them guessing and forgetting 5 minutes later (it does work wonders when a boy asks me something along the lines of "how does a compass work." I would say go to your PL or SPL, but I honestly don't think they would be of any help right now... I'm caught in a position where I want to give all of the boys a good program, but almost have to choose whether to start with the older or younger boys (imo). I would have them sign a contract with their parents outlining their responsibilities, but no one would win if their work was being assigned.

 

My issue is that there are several troops in my area in a position where we almost compete for the packs' Webelos. Last year, we got 10 boys from 3 packs, this year, we only got 2 boys from our own pack. This is a result of the leaders stepping back a little on program. I Know transition takes time, but I'm concerned to let it go much further and lose the troop as a result.

[Rick_in_CA]

One of the things to remember about leadership, is for the boys to be in charge, they have to have permission to fail. If adults step in to prevent them from failing, they weren't really in charge in the first place. Boy led can be messy. What it might take for the boys to learn, is a couple of "disasters". That camp out where they didn't have anything to eat because the food was ruined, got wet because they pitched the tents in the wrong place, and didn't do half of the planned activities because "someone else" was supposed to bring the required gear are great learning experiences. You have to let such things happen. Only step in when it becomes a real safety issue.

 

I noted your quote:

"I already showed you everything and you did nothing."

What was it you were supposed to do? There is very little that the boys shouldn't be handling.

[scoutergipper]

I was right where you are now a couple of years ago. Due to very poor recruiting for several years, we had almost precisely the demographic age-wise you have now. This problem resolves itself over time. 11 and 12-year-olds for the most part do not want to lead. Most of them don't have a clue what to do or how to do it. Most are "avoider" personalities. They will elect anyone who raises his hand. Just because someone is elected Patrol Leader does not mean he knows anything. We are just now - with three 15-year-olds and a handful of 14- and 13-year-olds who have their brains engaged, getting to the point where we can imagine a Troop with 4 good Patrol Leaders (assuming we can get the Scouts to elect them - no guarantees there).

 

What are you doing to train your Patrol Leaders in their jobs when they first get them? Are you providing a copy of the Patrol Leaders Handbook? No, they won't read it, but you can hold weekly or monthly meetings with them to go over important parts. Have you met with the "other" Patrols Members to ask them what they should be doing to be a "good Patrol Member?"

 

Beyond that, you have to make them "own" their program. If you don't have any Scouts who want to do anything, you may indeed lose your Troop. They'll learn something from that, too. We've had a rough, rough time of it, I can assure you.

 

I would encourage you to focus heavily on recruiting to make sure you survive the next several years as these boys grow up a bit and a few "get it."

[Hedgehog]

It sounds like you are trying to "make" them do what you think they should do by bringing in parents, threatening them about not making Eagle or making them sign a contract. That never works. Upon re-reading what I wrote, I realized that I left out the most important part - get the SM and the youth leaders around a table and then start asking questions. Better yet, ONLY ask questions. OK, you can take notes too and read them back to confirm what the boys decided. Keep asking questions until the boys address all of the issues and have a plan. Richard Covey (author of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) says to seek first to understand then to be understood. Can you say you understand the boys frustrations, goals and challenges? do you understand their point of view? Until you do, you shouldn't try to make them understand your point of view.

[Stosh]

Sorry, but the chorus of adult-led runs through your posting. This is a good thing in that it shows that the adults can fail just as easily as the youth. Now that we have that established, lets move on to more important issues.

 

1) PL's run the show. Toss the boys into a room, have them figure out who's in the three patrols of 6-8 boys and come out when they have a "leader".

 

2) Hold back your Eagle from the group.

 

3) Once this is done, have your Eagle be the Instructor for the PL's and have him available to teach whenever the PL's ask for help. If they never ask, the Instructor walks around, finds something the PL's are doing right and says, "Nice job, you didn't need my help this time, but if you do, be sure to let me know.

 

4) Eagle prepares the PL training sessions on leadership, GBB training, TLT training, or other training that the PL's might enjoy and be able to be more proficient in their patrols.

 

If one ends up with 3 patrols, there are 3 senior leaders in the troop. The SM and Instructor of PL's (SPL ) simply exist to help them when asked or to be there to pick up the pieces when things go haywire. Each patrol works independently of the other two patrols. If this arrangement runs into a snag, the Instructor of PL's convenes an ad hoc PLC to iron out any problems, all solutions to consider coming from the PL's, none dictated by the Instructor of PL's or SM.

 

If the Instructor of PL's and/or SM want to make a suggestion they may do so, but it is in NO WAY BINDING on the decision of the PL's. They might offer up opportunities for the PL to share with his boys, but they are in NO WAY BINDING on the decision of the PL's.

 

If done right, your PL's will come to trust in the advice and help of the SPL and will in turn FOLLOW some of his suggestions as something good for their patrols. If the SPL ever dictates anything, that delicate trust being developed will quickly go back to square one. Once they learn to follow the help of their SPL they in turn become helpful (and effective) to their patrols and the patrol members will in turn begin to trust their PL's as well. As one can easily see, this helping rather than directing is a powerful leadership skill to develop. The SPL with no real "authority" leading from the helping position will develop true leadership rather than just task management that seems to be what the boys in the troop are not wanting to get involved with in the first place. This is why at the present state of affairs, no one want to step up and be an SPL or PL. They have little or no management skills, but if they play their cards right, one can turn every patrol member into a helping leader, which is just another way of saying Team Work.

 

Stosh

[EagleScouter2010]

@ Rick_in_CA I am 100% in favor of this method and have been talking to SM about learning through failure. He is not ready for that step and I think I can agree with him. We had several boys call home at summer camp and parents called SM withing minutes to scream frustrations when neither he nor I knew what was going on. One boy's mother literally screamed over the phone because her son's sleeping bag got damp...he had told her it was soaked...we immediately calmed her down and patched his tent... As much as I would love to see them learn from their mistakes, most of our parents are inactive and are ready to call us and complain. We even hear things from our district commissioner because parents complain about how we handle things. (though leader/parents like the PL's mother I mentioned earlier completely agree with SM and me). The difficult situation we are in is mostly because we are nearly afraid to lose the boys we do have. Adult help is thin too with 2-3 positions per person. In near future, these methods would help the boys who need it, but if we lose membership and pack support, I don't see many boys moving to another troop. I'm in this for all of them. *also, since they are new at this, I told them I would look over their plans and point out (through questioning) any major problems I see, like them wanting to go canoeing in December...hopefully they never think of that...) @scoutergipper Unfortunately we are not in a position to be recruiting now as we barely have the adult man-power to run the committee and SM/ASM positions. Also, we have tried recruiting adult leadership extensively but even out of our batch of 10 boys last year, we only got a new CC. My concern is exactly what you said that we may indeed be losing the troop. We had SM, a committee member mother, and me at Summer Camp with 20 boys. SM and I will not go if we have that ratio again (the mother was mothering her child too, so it was more like 2:19). I'm not going into the details of camp, but SM and I bonded a lot more from the stress.... I am trying to get the leaders trained before I start the boys, and am trying to get a TLT together within a month after I take SM specific in October. It just amazes me that we had 4 former SM in the troop last year and not a single one admits troop is adult led. @hedgehog Bringing in parents is my last resort and I only did it with the one PL so far because I know how much he wants Eagle and I want him to earn it. I came from extremely adult led troops to the point where I only found out about patrol method after my Eagle. I feel that I didn't deserve to earn it when I did, and I know how bad of a feeling it was for me, though I know I can't predict he would feel the same. I can say I understand the boys' goals and frustrations, but I have no clue why they won't do anything about it. I have been talking to CC and SM and COR (former SM) for months trying to back us off of a choke hold on the program. I sat down with the PLC and they told me everything they were willing to share (some of it I couldn't repeat to Committee, like no women in scouting -_-). Mainly, I really am concerned that the boys can't think for themselves. They are GREAT at coming up with ideas, but have no follow-through whatsoever. In a way, you are right that I am trying to "make" them do what I want. I want them to plan and enjoy activities that THEY like, but they just do not understand how. I had them come to me and say they are planning a canoe trip in 15 days and I did everything I could to not laugh. That was about the 4th trip they "planned" 2 weeks in advance and they just don't remember anything we tell them or can't read what we write down. I gave PLC a list of what they need (trip, place, menu, transportation, etc.) and they only ever say what they want to do. I ask questions and they even got a little further on a camping trip, but just dropped the idea and lost their notes. *as a side, I may have been unclear, but I only told them that I personally would not have anything to do with their advancement, though I followed my comments to them by saying there is nothing I can physically do to stop the process. Back to your post. I actually went in to sit at a Committee meeting 2 months ago because I completely agreed with how the boys felt, but the CC had physical documented proof of the committee trying help PLC. I really just don't know if the boys are that clueless that they forgot about the help they were given already, or if they are actually lying to my face again. I confronted SPL but he won't admit either way. I know their goals, but do not understand why they complain, get what they ask for, then complain they didn't get it. Honestly, I thought bringing PL's mother in on the loop would motivate PL, but, again, I am lost. @jblake47 1. We tried that, but it ended up more like "cool" kids assigning "dork" kids to a patrol and having one 6 member patrol and one 12+ They wouldn't split so I handed SPL a sheet and told them if they can't decide then we are doing mixed. They didn't decide...and turned my bluff into an actual thing.... I sometimes think they are trying to make me feel terrible. 2&3 I am trying to get Eagle to do this, I really hope he can do it for me, I have high expectations and faith in him. He is very mature and responsible and has come through many times in the past. 4 I'm disappointed in myself for not thinking of having Eagle do this. THANK YOU! Could you link me to a GBB training, I've never actually seen one done or heard of other troops holding it. My biggest problem here will be convincing people that we need to have faith in the boys. After what I mentioned to others in this post, most leaders/parents/other adults just do not trust them. All but one PLC member (SM's 12yr old who dreams of being QM -_- The one boy I think could handle leading right now doesn't want to do it...I'm going to have to give him a little nudge and encouragement to lead, but I'm not sure he'll bite and I can't force it). lied to SM and me at Summer Camp, so the distrust sadly is justified. Would it be bad of me to print your post and let Eagle read it ??? As long as he doesn't read anything I write... @everyone I can't explain the entire troop dynamic or situation in a short post, so I'll try to correct any confusion or add more as it becomes necessary. Overall, the main problems seem to be mother/leader, SM, and I hitting a rock wall with parental concern so that poor little Johnny doesn't have to suffer the horror that is eating a slightly burnt pancake... Thanks for all of your ideas, I am familiar (mostly) with patrol method, I just need creative solutions (TLT is coming) to motivating boys and getting parental trust. Most of what I read was helpful though, so thank you again. EagleScouter2010

[EagleScouter2010]

Sorry about that post. Formatting error and I'm going to have to contact admin... Or I'll just post from a computer that isn't possessed.

[Twocubdad]

IMHO, your Number One issue is the lack of a clear, common vision for the troop among the key troop leaders. Until the adult leadership can agree on a vision and direction for the unit, expecting the youth leaders to fall in line is ridiculous. Fall in behind who?

 

Unfortunately, you have to come to terms with the COR. He represents the owners of the troop and it is his vision you need to work toward. That's not to say you don't have input. You should. But so should the parents of the slugs, um, Scouts. If the COR, committee and parents want a glorified Webelos III program, it going to be very difficult for you to run a traditional, boy-led program.

 

You and the SM need to sit down with the CC and COR and outline your vision for the unit. If they don't support the changes you want to make you need to move in another direction, and by direction I mean another troop. I don't realistically see where you are going to make the U-turn with this group.

[qwazse]

May I ask what seems to be a completely irrelevant question? What are your meetings like? Specifically what kind of activities do you all do?

[EagleScouter2010]

@Twocubdad I guess you're right about having to follow COR, I never thought about that before. I guess my next meeting objective is to sit down with those 3 and make sure we all walk away on the same page. I think CC is fine whichever direction we choose, though she wants her son to be in a disciplined program. SM and I both want boy led, so that leaves 2-3 opinions that may or may not clash.

 

@qwaze We would like to be able to have adult meetings to discuss things like this but the boys "need" us in with them. Normally, meetings end up being me trying to get PL's to organize things while other boys run amuck. The older boys make sure 30 out of 90 minutes is game time though...

[Stosh]

Look at Kudu's website http://www.inquiry.net for the GBB materials and a ton of other suggestions for a boy-led, patrol-method troop.

 

As far as the patrol breakdown simply state that 6-8 boys per patrol and their first lesson in leadership is to figure out how that is going to work for the troop. If they can't solve problems, they can't be leaders. Constantly turn the tables back on them so the ball is always in their court. Otherwise you become the target. 6 and 12? They have a problem. The door doesn't come open until they have resolved it.

 

Dork kids in one patrol? Great, now they don't have to put up with the "cool" kids. They will progress very nicely without the hassle of the more arrogant boys. As a matter of fact, you may just find out that this patrol will be the most scout-like in that they want to learn and improve and now they don't have the other boys getting in their way. Have them pick a PL and they are on their way to a great adventure. Remember the boys from the other patrols have no say so in how the Dork Patrol is run. Seriously, they will be your best scouts.

 

The other patrol. Let them be 12+ for a while. Have them pick a PL and let them be. Let them figure out why 6-8 is better than 12+.

 

By some inane BSA rule it says the SPL has to be elected by the troop. This is never a good idea. Just don't have one, and that's why the SM can "assign" as a special project the Eagle to be the "Instructor of PL's". Now you have your senior scout in a position to lead.

 

He won't be "needed" right away for the 12+ patrol, but the Dork Patrol will gladly accept any and all assistance he can provide to help them get their feet on the ground. For a while the "SPL" will deal with helping them gain their independence. And most importantly of all they won't have any of the "cool" boys getting in their way! What a great feeling for these boys knowing they won't be bullied or interfered with.

 

Eventually the other boy's group will become unwieldy and struggle. The SM and "SPL" WILL let them fail. It's their decision and their problem. Let them figure out why they have problems and who's really to blame for them. You advised against it and therefore you can't be blamed for the problems it creates. The Cool Patrol THINKS they have all the answers. Allow them the opportunity to realize they don't. Then give them the authority and permission to make the corrections. My mantra in my troop has always been. "Bummer, you really do have a problem, I"m glad it's not my problem." If they solicit advice, feel free to offer it up, but that's as far as you go. It's up to them to come up with a solution to THEIR problem. "They have good ideas, but don't follow-through." Well, now's the time to pay the piper. No decision IS a decision!

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

So, it sounds like, for meetings, you need a

• service patrol (who configures seating for meetings, lines up the gear/props that you all will need, cleans up)
  
• program patrol (who picks the game/challenge for the evening, chooses referees, contacts consultants like the VFD if for example the boys want to try fire and rescue drills).
  
• administration patrol (who runs the opening and closing, records roll call, reads off the agenda, etc ..).
  

Only got two patrols? No problem, the larger one fills two roles. Your instructor assigns the roster.

SM reflects frequently with PL's on how things are going. No critical evaluations. More open ended "What do you think of this month's meetings?", "What went well?", "Not so well?", "What should we do differently?"

 

You, as ASM, need to corral parents and give them your all's vision for the patrols. I suggest simply saying: a patrol leader's job is to qualify to take his boys hiking and camping. A patrol's goal is to hike and camp independently. They aren't there yet. That will start enough heated conversations. But, it will also set the tone for you to talk about "controlled failure", "youth responsibilities", etc ...Don't make this a long meeting. Just 5 or 10 minutes of what you expect from the boys in a year or so, then leave the room to help the SM with whatever and give the CC the floor.

[EagleScouter2010]

I'm not sure if I misled again. The "dork" and "cool" names are just what PL and SPL always say. In reality, the "cool" patrol is just the 12 oldest scouts OR the young ones they "approve" of. The "dork" patrol is actual a completely random group of boys that got put together because they were not wanted by the other boys. The group is mostly problem boys, though the PL I mentioned who is the only one wanting a leadership position is in this group (I want him to be a PL). He is not the sharpest tool in the shed and is lacking in terms of common sense, but he is the ONLY boy who has actually come to me with a decent plan for a trip (even though he didn't follow through). My problem was that for the overall safety and health of the group, the other leaders and I don't think certain boys should be in the same patrol due to constant fighting.... That is my dilemma.

 

Additionally, I would have a difficult time convincing other leaders to go along with what the boys want in terms of patrols. SM already approved what I did, unfortunately, and I am not sure I can convince either him or COR to allow other options...not that I won't still try. I'm just being pessimistic so I can have a back-up plan if I'm right. I just hope I'm completely wrong and get knocked off my feet with surprise.