Venture Uniform required?

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

The new Venture Scout advancement program has four actual cloth rank patches. Early on in the program revamp discussions there was talk of changing from crews choosing whatever uniform they want, to making the “official uniform†a required part of the program. Will Venture Crews now be required to use the official uniform?

 

I don’t know what the end product of the uniform discussion was, but I home we all will be wearing the official uniform. The uniform is a proven method of scouting, tried and true, and in my opinion, just want the Venture program needs.

 

BTW, I love the new changes, the program now feels and flows like a scouting program.

 

[Stosh]

I was a Crew Advisor for 12 years and was the only one in the group to have a green uniform. I wore it only when I was at district or council activities. None of the other adults wore them, nor the youth.

 

Stosh

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

My question isn't about what we have done, but how the new program will impact uniforming for Ventures. With actual ranks being added, and a marriage between program and advancement being put into place, as well as a move to traditional scouting program vehicles and delivery methods, it stands to reason that uniforming is now an important topic. My question is will these changes cause BSA to remove the "choose your own uniform" policy it has use for the past sixteen years.

 

 

[qwazse]

As the program revisions are currently written, no, the national uniform is remains one of many options available to crews. The cloth awards will work very well with any of the crew-designed uniforms that I've seen.

Note that they are still described as "Awards" not Advancement.

And, they are still venturers, not "venture scouts".

[Stosh]

My question isn't about what we have done, but how the new program will impact uniforming for Ventures. With actual ranks being added, and a marriage between program and advancement being put into place, as well as a move to traditional scouting program vehicles and delivery methods, it stands to reason that uniforming is now an important topic. My question is will these changes cause BSA to remove the "choose your own uniform" policy it has use for the past sixteen years.

 

 

I don't see any major shift in policy at this point. What are they going to shift to? They don't require a uniform now, and like Cub and Boy Scouts, the uniform is not required. Even if they did "require" a uniform, those that want it will get it, those that don't, won't, just like it's been for the past 15 years.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

There's a more specific response on http://www.scouting.org/filestore/ve...turingFAQs.pdf ...

National Venturing Youth Cabinet

Q: I understand that Venturers are now required to wear the green shirt and gray shorts or pants.

A: No. A crew is encouraged, as part of the group identity method, to develop a distinctive, common identity that represents their crew and its interests. The green shirt and gray shorts/pants may serve that purpose for the crew, and is encouraged as an option. Consistent with past practice, the Venturing field uniform is expected for participation in some council, area, region, and national Venturing events.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

As the program revisions are currently written, no, the national uniform is remains one of many options available to crews. The cloth awards will work very well with any of the crew-designed uniforms that I've seen.

Note that they are still described as "Awards" not Advancement.

And, they are still venturers, not "venture scouts".

 

Qwqzse, you like splitting hairs. Awards are a part of advancement, and the distinction between Venture Scout and Venturing no longer has any relevance. Returning to the actual discussion in progress ...

 

If we're trying to embrace the traditional methods of scouting in the Venture program, which is what I see happening, and we're placing an emphasis on advancement, wouldn't uniform use ne an deal way to support this program change?

 

Yes, some crews do have uniforms that will support wearing the new insignia, but most I'm familiar with use a t-shirt, which won't work will with the new insignia.

 

 

 

 

[qwazse]

Qwqzse' date=' you like splitting hairs.[/quote']

I kinda hate it actually. But it's important to correct misconceptions.

Awards are a part of advancement' date='[/quote']

You put the cart before the horse. Advancement involves awards. But the majority of awards in scouting (e.g. Hornaday, National Camping, etc ...) have nothing to do with advancement. As far as I can tell, the venturing awards remain in that domain. You're getting recognized for something that should be a part of your natural development. It's not that our youth weren't doing the great things venturers are supposed to do. It's that they couldn't have cared less about getting recognized for it.

and the distinction between Venture Scout and Venturing no longer has any relevance.

Sorry. Inside joke. A lot of folks including my crew presidents trip over the term. I'm not so much correcting you (our anyone else) as I am picking on such an unnatural brand name.

If we're trying to embrace the traditional methods of scouting in the Venture program' date=' which is what I see happening, [/quote']

Read the FAQ. The revision of awards is intended to support the diversity of venturing crews. Not nudge them to more traditional methods of scouting. The goal here is to not make crews look like troops. (Although personally, I wouldn't object, on some levels.) But to make crews more engaged with the BSA while retaining their identities (quirks and all ).

and we're placing an emphasis on advancement, wouldn't uniform use be an ideal way to support this program change?

 

Yes, some crews do have uniforms that will support wearing the new insignia, but most I'm familiar with use a t-shirt, which won't work will with the new insignia.

 

Again, cart before horse ... this isn't about making kids "do" certain things. This is about them attaining public recognition for the things that they do.

 

If this is successful, we'll see a lot of t-shirts with those diamonds on them. Consider where we're coming from. The pin-on bling would nearly tear a shirt to pieces. From your's and my perspective, that is a really stupid reason not to pursue a nationally recognized award. But the third-world-general look resonates negatively with most of my youth.

[ChaiAdventure]

 

Qwqzse, you like splitting hairs. Awards are a part of advancement, and the distinction between Venture Scout and Venturing no longer has any relevance. Returning to the actual discussion in progress ...

 

If we're trying to embrace the traditional methods of scouting in the Venture program, which is what I see happening, and we're placing an emphasis on advancement, wouldn't uniform use ne an deal way to support this program change?

 

Yes, some crews do have uniforms that will support wearing the new insignia, but most I'm familiar with use a t-shirt, which won't work will with the new insignia.

 

 

 

 

 

not sure sure why you would say that he is splitting hairs....

 

awards are most certainly not part of advancement and advancement is not a method in Venturing...

 

and why do you say that there is no relevance to distinguishing between venture scouts and venturers...they are completely different, are from different programs and have different methods associated with them...

 

 

[qwazse]

... and why do you say that there is no relevance to distinguishing between venture scouts and venturers...they are completely different' date=' are from different programs and have different methods associated with them...[/quote']

 

I'm glad OX laid things out the way he did. There is a divergence of expectations. Seasoned Boy Scout leaders come in expecting a crew to be a "souped up" troop (I certainly did). Active boy scouts and young ASMs are really looking for an "officers" or "under 21" club. The girls are split between wanting to "catch up" on their brother's adventures and wanting to be something new and unique. As an Advisor, every year or two I get a different mix and half the fun of it is figuring out what the crew "flavor of the year" will be.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Qwazse, I hear everything your saying, and respect it, but your speaking from your point of view as if it were fact.

 

Consider what items are administered by the Unit, District, and/or Council "Advancement Committee/Chair": Yep, nearly every one of the recognition items, awards and advancement. Yes, I do know "The National Court of Honor" and some outside orgs admin some items, but that has no relevance to the discussion.

 

The Venture/Venturing distinction only mattered when BSA did have a troop program for the older scouts; it's long since dead and gone.

 

Rather then discussing "if use of the official uniform would benefit the program" we're having a meaningless discussion about distinctions that make zero difference in anything.

 

I keep getting the feeling that you think I'm looking at the question form the outside, and perhaps that's a product of the way I started the discussion. I'm in no way new to the program, I oversaw my council's pilot, seventeen or eighteen years ago, and have not only served as a Crew Adviser, but trained a fair amount of them. Currently, as it relates to this discussion, I'm a founding member of my Charter Org's crew, where I'm the CC, and also serve as Commissioner for another crew.

 

I keep watching the struggles of crews, and wonder how we can reshape things to improve our program. At face value the new program looks fantastic, but only time will tell its worth.

 

Both of the crews I'm involved with have custom t-shirts they were with whatever is appropriate to the activity in question. I hope to see the new diamond shaped recognition devices sewn on the t-shirts, but I'm not convinced that will work. For the record I didn't like the military feel to the ribbons and medals. Cost aside, I am a fan of the official uniform, as it fosters a feeling of membership in the scouting movement.

[qwazse]

Thanks for the details on your position(s). I had a vague idea you'd "been all over town". But was too lazy to creep on your old messages to try and figure it out. And thanks for your service!

 

Qwazse' date=' I hear everything your saying, and respect it, but your speaking from your point of view as if it were fact.[/quote']

 

Well actually, I'm speaking from the published info on BSA and a little bit of experience ... it sounds like my point of view.

 

Consider what items are administered by the Unit' date=' District, and/or Council "Advancement Committee/Chair": Yep, nearly every one of the recognition items, awards and advancement. Yes, I do know "The National Court of Honor" and some outside orgs admin some items, but that has no relevance to the discussion.[/quote']

 

So who's point are you trying to make? We award advancement, among many other things that are not advancement. Of the things that are still not advancement: Venturing awards. That hasn't changed. We're not expecting every venturer to work on awards, we're just hoping we can do better then 0.1%!

 

The Venture/Venturing distinction only mattered when BSA did have a troop program for the older scouts; it's long since dead and gone.

 

You mean like what is described as the CURRENT program for patrols on http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...rolLeader.aspx ? Sure don't look dead to me. I still encourage older scouts who sound envious of venturing crews, but short on time for organizing one, to consider talking to their SM about forming a venture patrol. From where I sit, our districts continue to be short on commissioners, so spinning off whole new units on account of a few guys who want a little more adventure comes off as a resource-heavy recipe for boom-and-bust. I do not want to repeat the inflated figures of 2001-2005. (Bit of background: I try to volunteer on our council's venturing committee as time allows -- generally a good experience except for one time we wanted to contact all of our advisors and our DE handed me a list of what were obviously paper crews. Not a good day for him or me.)

 

My point: the distinction between Venture and Venturing (although I really hate the choice of terms) is important because any healthy troop should have that "outward bound" leadership corps (Guide to Safe Scouting notwithstanding). Lacking a better name for THAT group, we're kinda stuck with the tongue twisters!

 

Rather then discussing "if use of the official uniform would benefit the program" we're having a meaningless discussion about distinctions that make zero difference in anything.

...

I keep watching the struggles of crews, and wonder how we can reshape things to improve our program. At face value the new program looks fantastic, but only time will tell its worth.

 

Both of the crews I'm involved with have custom t-shirts they were with whatever is appropriate to the activity in question. I hope to see the new diamond shaped recognition devices sewn on the t-shirts, but I'm not convinced that will work. For the record I didn't like the military feel to the ribbons and medals. Cost aside, I am a fan of the official uniform, as it fosters a feeling of membership in the scouting movement.

 

From where I sit, a lot of our short term growth is from youth who don't want to shell out their hard-earned $$ for a uniform (remember, they are older now, Mom and Dad are trying to put dimes together for college or trade school). Our long term retention involves my getting youth to be in the VOA, and when they take on council/area responsibilities (like teaching a class that explain the difference between "venture patrols" and "venturing crews" ), they start hankerin' to look like they represent something bigger.

 

Therefore, I'm guessing it's the other way 'round. Bigger program opportunities (i.e., more youth exposed to wider classes of venturers and challenged to represent scouting more widely) will promote uniforming. Uniforming will not promote a bigger program. Now, inasmuch as the new awards -- even if kids start by sewing them on their backpacks or whatever --- lead to youth being exposed to bigger program opportunities, I do believe more national shirts will be sold. I'll let you know if that's the case.

 

Right now, my crew has outright rejected the awards without so much as looking at the brochure. I'm hoping to find a way to ease it back into the discussion because I have a couple of kids who I really believe would benefit from working on them.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Qwazse,

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain what your saying, and where your coming from. You're correct I've been all over town, lol. I think it's a product of how I approach being a scouting volunteer; "If I can I will". I've been volunteering with BSA for nearly thirty years, which still makes me a youngster in this community

 

Currently I have more hats then I care for. I'm cultivating my replacement as Crew CC, and although I remain active with my son's troop, I've moved from a primary ASM role, to being an available resource. Moving forward my intention is to continue as UC for my Charter Org (Pack, Troop, Crew), and to continue as an Associate Lodge Adviser only.

 

Our troop does operate two Venture Patrols. However, we operate in no way resembles the Venture Patrol program we ran just prior to, and during the Venturing pilot. The pilot where the Venture program existed only in troops is what I'm making reference to, when I talk about a dead program.

 

 

[qwazse]

I was brought up in the era of Leadership Corps, which upon reflection pulled together the SPL and JASMs into a "lets show 'em how it's really done" patrol. We'd practice a skill (like mess-kit pizza) after helping some Eagle project on a mountainside in the middle of winter, then demonstrate it to the other patrols on some other, more tame, weekend.

 

Aside from a honking big patch to dominate your left sleeve, how did that differ from what was the Venture Patrol pilot?

 

How did the Venture Patrol pilot differ from what is taught about Venture Patrols today?