Youth protection question

[Lenae]

The background: This has been bugging me for a while now, and I don't know who is right. Our pack took 6 boys to camp, 5 of whom had a parent with them every day. Our camp leader (who did take YPT, as did all the parents who went, but doesn't hold a regular leadership position in the pack) told a parent that he could not take his son to the bathroom, that the boy needed to go with a buddy. Dad felt that the bathroom was a bit too far of a walk for the boy and his buddy (both Tigers). The leader then told the parent that he could not accompany both boys to the bathroom because he didn't have a second adult to go with him.

 

The questions: I thought that Tigers were supposed to have their adult partners with them all the time, which is why all of our Tigers had parents at camp. Was our camp leader correct that the parent could not take his son by himself? And, I thought that 2 boys:1 adult was an acceptable ratio in terms of YP, or does it have to be 2 adults and 2 boys?

[Sentinel947]

As far as I understand, there are two YPT rules that are separate and distinct. My knowledge of applying it to cubs is sketchy, since I've never been a cub leader. (Buyer beware!) Rule one: no one on one contact. Rule two: two adults( one who's over 21 and registered and YPT trained) on every trip. These rules do not necessarily apply together, IE Two adults within view of each other regardless of the number of Scouts. While having two adults go with the Cubs provides more oversight for everybody, it's not required by BSA rules. I believe however, it's preferable to have one parent go with two cubs letting two tigers walk by themselves. Going off the cuff here, but I believe for tenting , one parent cannot tent with their son and somebody else's cub, but I'm not entirely sure of that. Anybody else know?

[qwazse]

A parent may go with his son! The rule that applies otherwise is no 1-on-1 contact. Overnite activities require two-deep leadership, so unless the group was sheltering in the bathroom, one leader for two or more boys would suffice.

[packsaddle]

A parent is always 'in charge' of their child and yes they may go with their son. Qwazse is right about this. Tigers are supposed to be accompanied by their parent or guardian. But a parent always has the ultimate authority over their own child.

[Tampa Turtle]

Gee whiz lets not over complicate things, Any YPT adult could have escorted two Tigers to the bathroom if they were worried about them getting lost/hurt and once safely delivered stay outside the bathroom at a discreet distance and in plain sight. And yes a Dad can go with his son but I wouldn't if other boys were there...

[Hedgehog]

To add to the chorus - Two deep leadership on outings is for safety (one adult can leave to get help while the other stays with Scouts) rather than a barrier to abuse. There is no prohibition for one adult being with two scouts (in fact the YPT guidelines encourage that for merit badge conferences and Scoutmaster conferences and for car travel). There also is no prohibition regarding one-on-one contact with your own child. Also, as long as you are at a Scout Camp and out in the open (e.g. on roads and trails in daylight) that is not considered to be one-on-one contact because it is a public place with others around. At camp, I often walk to and from merit badge classes with the leaders taking the opportunity to chat about how things are going. That being said, I think that walking a scout (which is not your son) to the bathroom is something I wouldn't do or permit just because, well it's the bathroom. That's what the buddy system if for. For Tigers, their buddy is their parent.

[Peregrinator]

I got the impression that the bathroom was out of the line of sight (and, of course, the bathroom itself is out of sight), otherwise why would it be too far for the cubs to walk on their own? So that would mean either one cub with his dad or two cubs with two adults. For example, what happens if one of the cubs needs help in the bathroom? It could happen at that age.

[Lenae]

This was at day camp, and at some of the stations, the nearest bathrooms were hard for the little guys to find on their own. The camp leader was pretty rude about the whole situation. During the scouting event (camp) we definitely had at least two leaders over age 21 who did YPT. Also, there should have been no reason for the parent to have to take the two boys, because he's allowed to be 1:1 with his own son, right? The other Tiger was working on his wagon and didn't need to use the bathroom, and didn't want to go and not get to finish his wagon. He would have gone if needed, but he preferred to not. After a little row, the dad took his son to the bathroom. Camp leader hemmed and hawwed and said "I'll be telling the CM and CC about this!" But I was pretty sure the parent was in the right.

[NJCubScouter]

To add to the chorus - Two deep leadership on outings is for safety (one adult can leave to get help while the other stays with Scouts) rather than a barrier to abuse.

 

That is not correct. Two-deep leadership is one of the barriers to abuse, and in this document it is the first one listed: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

 

I think the problem in the original post is a misunderstanding of the two-deep leadership rule. The policy says this: "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings." That means the two leaders/parent must be on the outing. They need to be in the campsite, or on the hike, or wherever you are going. There may be a question about "side trips," for example if half the troop on a camping trip goes on a five-mile hike from the campsite and then returns, have you created two "outings"? But this was not a side trip. This was a short walk to the latrine. Two adults were not required. (And on the no one-on-one issue, as others have said, this rule does not apply to a parent and his/her own child.)

 

[Hedgehog]

That is not correct. Two-deep leadership is one of the barriers to abuse' date=' and in this document it is the first one listed: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx [/quote'] Interesting. I didn't notice that before. The Two Deep requirement appears in the Guide to Safe Scouting under "Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings" and (as I realized after double checking today) under "Barriers to Abuse." I've always viewed the two deep requirement as being more leadership focused because of its applicability to trips and outings and the no one-on-one being more of a barrier to abuse but I can see how two-deep could be both.

[Sentinel947]

 

That is not correct. Two-deep leadership is one of the barriers to abuse, and in this document it is the first one listed: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

 

 

Having read the document in question, it still doesn't validate the camp leaders directive.(Not that you said it did NJ) While two leaders on the trip is a barrier to abuse and good for oversight and safety of the Scouts, both leaders do not need together at all times. I do prefer have other adults within sight of me at all times, but it's not required as long as we aren't one on one with Scouts.

 

What creates problems with the YPT training is when people take the rules that are meant to be separate as being together. Two leaders on the outing. No one on one contact. Having the two leaders together helps prevent one on one contact and is a really good idea, but there are situations where it isn't necessary or practical. (Do we need two adults in every car on the way to a trip?) (Do we need two adults to walk two cubs to the restroom?) Sometimes common sense needs to be used.

 

Sentinel947

 

 

[Peregrinator]

This was a short walk to the latrine. Two adults were not required. (And on the no one-on-one issue' date=' as others have said, this rule does not apply to a parent and his/her own child.)[/quote']

What if a parent takes his son to the bathroom and another cub comes along, but the parent has to go in the bathroom because the cub who isn't his son needs help? Then you have a one-on-one issue.

[NJCubScouter]

Peregrinator: Yes, you have a one-on-one issue, and depending on what kind of "help" is required you may have an issue with at least one of the other guidelines as well.

[Lenae]

What if a parent takes his son to the bathroom and another cub comes along, but the parent has to go in the bathroom because the cub who isn't his son needs help? Then you have a one-on-one issue.

 

 

I think this instance is exactly why Tiger Cubs have to have an adult partner. Older (neurotypical) children can handle themselves in the bathroom.

[mashmaster]

 

 

I think this instance is exactly why Tiger Cubs have to have an adult partner. Older (neurotypical) children can handle themselves in the bathroom.

 

 

Oi Vay, the other boy would need to take care of himself. The boys should be able to travel together with a buddy to the restroom. The parent can travel with his own son. I've always been wary of one adult with two boys anyway. I'm a YPT facilitator, unfortunately there are sick people out there, and boys make horrible witnesses. If a parent goes with multiple boys, grab another parent and have them walk with you. You will have a nice conversation and get to know them :-)

 

I've had leaders accused before, and after the investigation they were cleared. Some parents like to interpret the rules. So it is best to have adults travel in pairs too. And yes, I wish it was different.