JASM

[scoutmom77]

I am interested in finding out if there are troops that have appointed a scout younger than 16 to the JASM position.

[qwazse]

I don't believe we look at the age requirements, but we don't look at PORs that closely in general. If a boy's a slacker, he ain't advancing, and pointing to a patch on his sleeve won't change that.

[Eagledad]

We look at maturity, not age. Our JASMs are usually respected by both the adults and scouts as the Go-To scouts because they know how everything works. They are master scouts. It is not usually a POR the scout seeks to fill a requirement for advancement. Barry

[Tampa Turtle]

We have one, an Eagle who was a (military transfer) to the Troop. He did a good job running some meetings for the SM but the ambiguity of the position visa vie other adults is a bit problematic. But he is an exceptional lad...

[Eagledad]

We have expereinced the same ambiguity from Eagle transfers and I'm guessing it has more to do with the scout being a stranger to the enviroment, not the position. I find the relationship between the JASM and the troop evolves into what it is, where as the transfer is given the postion without a lot of expectation. Generally our transfers age out before the the relationship gets broken in. That being said, I ran into of our past scouts who was an Eagle transfer. He was only our troop for a year before he aged out and joined the Army. He told me that his one year with our troop was one of his best memories of his scouting experience. So I guess we did OK. He was the scout I've mentioned before who resuscited a baby found at the bottom of a pool. Barry

[fred johnson]

Age isn't the issue. It's confidence, drive and ability. No strict requirements. Just by coincidence, our JASMs have been Eagle scouts looking to do something for the troop. Usually, they have been 16 or 17, but that was not a requirement.

 

[scouts-a-lot]

Scouts in our Troop turn 16 and just expect to be made a JASM. Then they sit around and do nothing. Personally I hate the position because of what represents in our Troop

[perdidochas]

We haven't had much luck with JASMs, but then again, we haven't had Eagles who've stuck around (most have been 17). My oldest (almost 16) may become our first workable JASM, as he is our first Eagle to stick around. I do think that 16 should be a requirement for JASM, though.

[Stosh]

I don't use the position. Never have, never will. I don't think it is a true Position of Responsibility in that assignments given JASM are usually interfering with other real POR's or the position is so watered down the skills of a highly trained boy is basically being wasted. Skilled Eagles are better utilized in actual POR positions but those spots are usually filled by lesser skilled boys needing advancement (to the detriment of the troop program).

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

So I can understand you opinion better stoshs, let me asks: You often refer to Eagle rank as the highest honor of respect, could you ever imagine your troop's most respected scout to be only of First Class rank because advancement was never a priority in his scouting career? What would you do with the scout if he clearly was better at this scouting stuff than you. If a SM forces a scout who skills are far advanced for the PL position to be PL, isn't that SM limiting the growth of that scout as well as the scout who needs the PL experience for further growth? There is no right or wrong answer, but they might help me understand how you use work with scouts. Barry

[NJCubScouter]

I do think that 16 should be a requirement for JASM' date=' though. [/quote']

 

It IS a requirement. The fact (which I have learned for the first time in this thread) that some troops do not follow that requirement does not make it any less of a requirement. In the three troops with which I have been involved (either as a Scout or Scouter), nobody was a JASM until they were at least 16. I guess I just assumed everybody was following what it says in "the book" on that subject.

[NJCubScouter]

Stosh, there is no doubt that if you look at all of the POR's in the book, there are many overlaps in responsibilities, but maybe there is some purpose to that. Learning to divide up responsibilities when it is not perfectly clear who is supposed to do what is part of learning leadership, and part of learning to be part of a common effort. When it comes time to instruct younger Scouts in a skill, it could be their PL or Troop Guide on a patrol basis, or it could be a JASM, Instructor, ASPL or some others on a troop basis. The holders of the different POR's should be talking to each other and figuring out who is going to what, and then maybe take turns and somebody else does it the next time. Being able to do that is a skill in and of itself, which will be very useful later in life.

[Stosh]

So I can understand you opinion better stoshs' date=' let me asks: You often refer to Eagle rank as the highest honor of respect, [/quote']

 

I have said highest rank, never the highest honor of respect. I seriously have found over the past 40 years many boys less than First Class that have garnered more respect than some of the Eagles I have met. That's not meant as a put down on anyone, just that all boys are different and mature at different rates regardless of their rank skill levels. Maturity level (respect) and skill (rank) are an apples and oranges kinda thingys.

 

could you ever imagine your troop's most respected scout to be only of First Class rank because advancement was never a priority in his scouting career?

 

Very, very slight possibility. The development of ranking skills to help and assist the younger boys goes hand-in-hand with the ability to actually be able to help them. When the most respected scout who is only FC says, to a younger boy, "don't do as I do, do as I say," he begins to sound too much like an adult practicing hypocrisy. I don't see a FC scout being the most respected unless he's the oldest in the troop and has not yet had an opportunity to work on Star. That of course would put him in the very, very slight possibility category to meet the criteria of your question. However, once other scouts surpass him in rank and maturity, the boy's respect will undoubtedly decline as the others look to the more motivated scouts for inspiration.

 

What would you do with the scout if he clearly was better at this scouting stuff than you.

 

I would love to meet and shake the hand of the 17 year old scout that has 60 years of camping experience, 36+ of them as a registered scout, who is trained and served at the Cub Scout level (6 years), the Boy Scout level (23 years and the Exploring (2 years)/Venturing (16 years) level, who has trained other in the outdoor skills of Cub Scout (Webelos Overnight, 6 years) and Boy Scout, SM Fundamentals as SM 2 years) levels and who has earned his Commissioner's Key helping other units get the most of out the BSA program, who is clearly better at this scouting stuff than me. Too much paperwork for Doctorate of Scouting, so I'm only at the Master's level. They quit asking me to be on WB staff because I'm pre-2000 trained. (for me that's a good thing)

 

If a SM forces a scout who skills are far advanced for the PL position to be PL' date=' isn't that SM limiting the growth of that scout as well as the scout who needs the PL experience for further growth? [/quote']

 

Boy led means the SM doesn't force any scout to be in a position they don't want to be in. As SM I have never been involved in the POR assignment/selection/election process. Not the SM's call to make. (At least in my book, you're mileage may vary.) I have, however, in a few instances taken away the POR patch from certain scouts to keep him from harming the program of scouting. A good scout can help and assist any and all other scouts in the troop even if he has no patch on his shirt. Seen it work that way many, many times. Younger scouts look to such boys because they respect them, not because they are wearing any kind of POR patch on their shirt, but because they are willing to help them learn. Sometimes when the POR patch motivates the scout to take on the bullying management style of dictating, he is the LAST person that is sought out for help. Management style scouts are more interested in looking good by getting the task done than in helping the scouts he assigns with it. If a scout doesn't get advancement because of no POR, he had better re-evaluate his role, attitude, and functionality in the troop/patrol. SM's who assign POR's based on advancement needs are adult led and more worried about one scout's advancement than the needs and welfare of the others. The boys have always let me know who would serve best in what position and they have seldom been wrong and if they select who they are willing to follow, 90% of the problems go away.

 

There is no right or wrong answer' date=' but they might help me understand how you use work with scouts. Barry[/quote']

 

Stosh

 

[Stosh]

Stosh' date=' there is no doubt that if you look at all of the POR's in the book, there are many overlaps in responsibilities, but maybe there is some purpose to that. Learning to divide up responsibilities when it is not perfectly clear who is supposed to do what is part of learning leadership, and part of learning to be part of a common effort. When it comes time to instruct younger Scouts in a skill, it could be their PL or Troop Guide on a patrol basis, or it could be a JASM, Instructor, ASPL or some others on a troop basis. The holders of the different POR's should be talking to each other and figuring out who is going to what, and then maybe take turns and somebody else does it the next time. Being able to do that is a skill in and of itself, which will be very useful later in life.[/quote']

 

POR's seem to be clearly defined and really don't overlap in my book. If they did, then there would be two positions working on the same problem at the same time. Pretty much means one of the two scouts is wasting their time or at least getting in the way of the other.

 

Instructing younger Scouts? Depends on what the PL needs for his boys. He might do the job of instruction himself. He might seek out an opinion on it from the TG. He might ask an Instructor to come up with a program for his boys because he hasn't the time to do it himself and needs the help. It might just be another member of another patrol that is a fantastic cook and wants him to train some of this boys the great recipes he has. It could even be an adult who has specialize skills that the patrol members need. MB counselors would fall into this category, or even the SM who has been to Philmont and could give the boys a few pointers of what is necessary. Could be another outside adult such as community leader, or DARE officer as the requirements state. These "others" don't have to discuss anything, they don't have to do anything until the PL comes and asks for some help and then it will be to a specific scout or adult depending on the need, might wear any one of many POR's if any POR patch at all. He might ask the QM to train one of his boys in being a QM for the patrol, or he might organize a class on a first aid requirement for the whole patrol. ONLY the PL is in a position to know what's best for the boys of his patrol. Outsiders dictating to a patrol anything do nothing more than disrupt the leadership focus of the patrol. Do the patrol members answer to the PL?, the TG? the SPL? the SM? Once the boys get themselves confused on that protocol, it may take a long time to sort it out for them and in the meantime, the patrol leadership structure is in shambles and seriously? who wants to be a PL in that position? Walk away and pass on the PL POR until some other time.

 

In my troop the only boy that can ask help of the SM or an ASM is a PL. No adult ever has to say, "Go ask your PL!" They know who their leader is, they chose him, and that "him" cannot be an adult. The only time a boy ever goes "over the head" of their PL means the situation is extremely serious and can't wait, like maybe one of the tents is on fire......

 

New troop, new patrol, it took 2 months for the boys to come up with who the PL would be. No adult ever told them they even needed a PL, but they figured they should have one on their own. Still haven't gotten an APL because the new PL was working on getting the boys ready for summer camp. Now that camp is over, maybe I'll be hearing about a new APL or some other POR in the next few months. When they're ready, they'll tell me. It was suggested to the PL that unless he wants to be PL until he turns 18, he had better be thinking about training someone to fill his PL spot so he could try another POR. Who knows, maybe he would do just fine being PL until he's 18. That's his choice to make, not mine.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

The development of ranking skills to help and assist the younger boys goes hand-in-hand with the ability to actually be able to help them.

 

What are the ranking skills of a Star Scout?

 

However' date=' once other scouts surpass him in rank and maturity, the boy's respect will undoubtedly decline as the others look to the more motivated scouts for inspiration.[/quote']

 

So while rank and maturity are apples and oranges, maturity is directly related to rank? Is that what you are saying?

 

When the most respected scout who is only FC says' date=' to a younger boy, "don't do as I do, do as I say," he begins to sound too much like an adult practicing hypocrisy.[/quote']

 

You said rank and maturity are apples and oranges. Then you suggest rank and maturity are linked. I'm sure that is clear in your mind, but it has to be adult controlled because I have worked with some brilliant very mature natural leaders who had zero desire for working on Merit Badges. They had passion for the outdoors and leading, but not advancement beyond 1st. class. Yet, your philosophy would limit their experience in your troop? How do you not see the irony of your bias against other adults (hypocrites) and your own controlling style?

 

What am I missing stosh.

 

Barry