Can we learn from GSUSA?

[acco40]

It is my understanding that the Girl Scouts encourages "girl led" from day 1 (Daisys). That is even at the younger ages the girls are introduced to making decisions, albeit in very small steps initially, and then allowed to make more and more as they climb the ladder to brownies, junior girl scouts, etc.

 

In our program, we seem to have 100% adult run in Cub Scouts and then try to transition to 100% boy led in Boy Scouts. Now, Cub Scouts may use denners (they should) but there is really no leadership training at all at their level, either formal or informal. We also know that the day they cross over into Boy Scouts, the transition is not immediate to 100% boy led, especially with a young troop. That is the goal, yes, but the reality can be different.

 

I would like to see more of a transitional goal of leadership expertise being introduced in the Cub Scout level. I do know the concept of boy led seems very foreign to many new parents when they join Boy Scouts. I'd like to see less of a dichotomy between the two programs and have Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts more integrated similar to the GSUSA program. Thoughts?(This message has been edited by acco40)

[EagleInKY]

Acco - I agree wholeheartedly. As someone trying to build a new troop, we've found the boy-led model very challenging. While the adult leaders are confortable with it, the parents and some of the boys really seem to struggle with the concept.

 

I am trying to get with Webelos leaders early, preferably in the first year, to get them working on ways to move in this direction. I believe one of the good ways of doing it is through a well-run Den Chief program. If a Den Chief is used effectively, he can do much of the leadership in the den, and help get the boys used to following other boys. Also, if he's comfortable with the boy-led model (as he should be), he can help the boys understand and implement it as well.

 

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Quick story about our boys when they were Webelos - We were at Roundup last September ('02), our boys were starting their 2nd year of Webelos. Three of them were there to assist with the Roundup (handing out papers & pencils, showing parents where to go, etc.). Before the roundup started, the DE and the Pack Leaders were all over in the corner of the gym getting their agenda finalized. About 25 kids (mostly 1st & 2nd graders) were running all over the place. Suddenly, we realized that they were quiet. We looked around, and saw that our three Webelos had gotten them to all sit over in the corner of the gym, and were playing a quiet game with them. It absolutely floored me, and nearly brought me to tears. I realized then that these boys can and will lead, we just have to get out of their way.

 

[acco40]

The Den Chief program, if run correctly, can be marvelous. However, troops like to use it as a training ground for potential leaders to "cut their teeth" and dens like to receive the "best leaders available" from the troop.

 

I recently recommended a 1st Class Scout (11 yrs old, 9 mos. into the Boy Scout program) to a first year Webelos den. The den had solicited for a Den Chief. At his first den meeting, after the adults ran the arts and crafts part of the meeting, ALL of the adults left the new den chief alone with the boys downstairs and went upstairs to do some planning. The new den chief struggled. I was not present but thought that he was placed in an awkward situation. It was not the Pack that the den chief came out of so the boys were strangers to him. Nothing like a baptism by fire!

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

GSUSA may talk about but I haven't seen it. If it does work, remember that despite what Gloria Steinem (sp?) may say, boys and girls are different. Just look at the different ways that boys and girls play.

 

 

[EagleInKY]

I've seen both extremes on Den Chiefs. We had an incredibly talented young man as a Den Chief. He was about 14 yrs old and almost to Life Scout. Looking back, we under-utilized him. I didn't realize how talented he was until later. We (the adult leaders) did a disservice to him and to the boys. It's my own fault. But, Webelos Leaders have to be taught how to use boy leaders. I think that is the crux of the matter, and exactly the point you are trying to make. The question then, is how do we get Webelos Leaders to learn, accept and implement some form of boy leadership, in order for the transition to Boy Scouting to work smoother.

 

Anyone have an answer for that?

 

-John

[EagleInKY]

BTW - I haven't seen this in the GS either. Most of the GS programs I have seen are heavily adult run. I've even had GS leaders tell me how they wish that their programs were more like the Boy Scouts in regards to the Aims and Methods.

[acco40]

FOG,

 

Girls seem to understand the "cooperative" nature of teamwork before boys do. Boys learn the "might makes right" first and then teamwork later on.

 

No doubt boys and girls are different but both can learn from their respective programs.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually in my experience its the boys who learn teamwork through sports while girls have individual sports and dont learn teamwork, it may depend on where you are

[Fat Old Guy]

According to something that I read in a BSA publication, psychologists say that children don't develop the idea of "the team" until they are 11 or 12. That's why youth soccer can be so hilarious to watch and baseball is a good sport for little kids.

 

[acco40]

Girls are much better at relationships and "people skills" at not only an earlier age but throughout life. Certain types of leadership benefits from this. Not too many autistic (or too much male brain) characteristics exist in females with respect to males.

 

To girls, "team" takes on a different meaning. When my seven year old daughter played soccer, you passed the ball to another girl to be nice, not because she was open. Their concept of team is developed earlier but just differently than boys. Cooperation is the key, not winning as much.

[NJCubScouter]

I am not an expert in the Girl Scout program. I had two daughters in the Girl Scouts, both of whom quit what seems like a long time ago. (One of them was a first-year Cadette, I believe, and the other was a Brownie, when they both decided within a month of each other to give it up.) I therefore have no reason to doubt that the GSUSA girl-led emphasis is appropriate for their program.

 

I also think that the Boy Scouts does not need to introduce boy-led that early. Through the Bear year, adult-led works fine. The BSA might consider incorporating some degree of boy-led into the Webelos program. Not to the degree it is used in a Boy Scout troop, but I think Acco is right, to go from zero to 100 percent (though in practical fact it is not 100 percent, but that is another thread) is pretty jarring. I'm not sure the boys quite know what to make of it at the beginning (after crossing over.) Maybe even more so, and I am half-smiling as I say this, the parents need better preparation for a program in which they are not in charge. I have seen numerous parents not quite "get" this, and have read about some pretty egregious cases of this in this very forum. A couple of years ago I met the CC (at least at that time) of the troop I was a member of as a youth, and some of the other leaders of that troop were around (including my father, which is how this "meeting" occurred), and she was talking about how the troop was going to do this and that activity... but she sounded for all the world like a cubmaster or den leader -- which I am sure she had been previously -- and not a CC of a troop. From listening to her, I got no sense that the boys had much to do with planning their own program, and from what my father has told me, this is largely true for that troop. (After 65 years in Scouting, 58 of them as an adult leader, my father has long since given up trying to tell the younger adult leaders what to do. I know that when he was SM, we had a boy-led troop, because I was there for part of that time.)

 

So anyhoo, a little preparation for boy-led during the Webelos years (can 18-20 months be called "years"?) probably wouldn't hurt the boys or their parents.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Girls are much better at relationships"

 

Relationships, the bane of every man's existence.

 

I love this piece by Dave Barry

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~odyssey/Quotes/Modern_World/Dbr.html

[OutdoorThinker]

Being a Girl Scout for the last 13 years, and a leader for the last two, I have a little experience with the program. I was not a Daisy, but I am pretty sure they dont have five year olds running the meeting, to be perfectly honest with you. However girls as young as Juniors (4th-6th grade) help to lead Daisy and Brownie meetings. In a well run troop, by Juniors girls are planning their meetings, trips and what badge/patches they will be working on. By the time Cadettes and Seniors roll around (older middle school and high school age) leaders play the same sort of role as Venture Crew advisors. Sit back, listen, help to get things needed for programing and drive places. When I was a Senior Girl Scout, we were our own Cookie Parents(typically one parent that oversees the orders, troop tally, sorting and final payment of the troops cookies), we planned a week long trip to Boston complete with reservations, budget and other arrangements needed to be made. Our capacity as older leaders, however came from the experiences we were given as younger girls to lead our peers and younger girl scouts.

[Wallace]

I know this is creeping off-topic a bit but ...

There is already a leadership component to Cubs. It is the Denner and Assistant Denner!

As always, the BSA only works when the adults are trained, actually use the BSA resourses, and bother to follow the program!

[ScoutNut]

As OutdoorThinker noted, GSUSA does not have 5 year old's running meetings. What GSUSA has is "progression". They start out small and work their way towards a fully girl run troop by the time the girls are Senior Girl Scouts (high school). It starts with the girls deciding what field trips they want to go on after being given a choice of several different ones by their leaders. It progresses to the girls picking their own troop government in 1st grade. The girls pick which badges to work on, what they want to do during the year, figure out how much it will cost the troop to do all of these things, decide if they will participate in their council fundraisers, and how much they need to sell in order to fund their troop. Ideally, if there is a decision to be made regarding the troop, it is the girls who make it. This starts out with the leaders offering the options, guiding the selection process, and having the final yes or no. As the girls get better at it the leaders slowly give over more and more responsibilty to their girls.

 

There is also an element of service in lots of what each level does. The girls are encouraged to work with different levels of girls and to participate in service projects and eventually to create their own (Bronze Award-Juniors, Silver Award-Cadettes, Gold Award-Seniors).

 

But, as with everything in both programs, the program is only as good as the leaders who deliver it!

 

In Tigers the boy is supposed to work WITH his adult partner when it is their turn to lead meetings. The concept of letting the kids have a say in what their group does can be fairly easily translated to all of Cubs. The leaders just have to start asking the boys which things they want to do instead of making all the decisions for them.