Checking packs before a specialty/ High adventure trip - yes? or no?

[LauraT7]

Our troop always does a winter campout. Last year they built their own shelters out of tarps - this year they are going to try and build shelters out of natural materials.

 

Every year, one of our experienced adults gives a talk on hypothermia, dressing for the weather, and how to suppliment your gear for the weather, etc. the older boys are doing a shelter demo and there will be equipment there to examine, suggested lists given out, etc.

 

On past trips, we have discussed having the boys bring their packs, packed and ready to go - to be checked by an experienced scout or adult, and have suggestions made. The troop and families DO have equipment available to borrow, If someone is Not properly equipped ( extra bags to layer, a clothing bank of cold weather clothes, etc.)

 

the problem is - though checking packs has been suggested, it NEVER comes to pass. Instead it is pushed off to the day of departure, boys are threatened with being left behind if they are unprepared, the boys show up, the packs never get checked because we are rushed to leave on time, and no one is actually sent home when they show up in canvas shoes!

 

(actually, the boys got lucky the last two years, we had unusually warm weather that weekend and no snow!)

 

In the past, our winter campout has HAD a shelter available. It's a really cool cabin, and we always end up with some boys giving up and using it.

BUT the point is to camp outside and get your 'Polar Bear' patch, and learn survival skills.

 

This year we have NOT asked the camp staff for the key to the cabin. there IS no 'retreat'. Today there is already snow on the ground - not much, but COLD.

 

there is a mandatory pre-campout meeting for the training above, scheduled 2 weeks before the trip, just before Christmas. doing inspections then would allow the boys 2 weeks to get or borrow any supplimental stuff they need over Christmas break. Originally this training was going to be earlier in Dec, but we could not get the speaker until the 22nd.

 

Our Jr. ASM and SPL don't want to bother with pack inspections at the mandatory pre- campout meeting. Basically, I think because the training meeting was pushed off so late, they don't want to spend any extra time doing it! they want to do 'pack inspections' the day we leave for the campout (which is a 3+ hr drive away). I and at least one other adult think this will just delay us and STILL will not make sure the boys are properly prepared.

 

We have quite a few boys who have never done this kind of camping, and those that have - often STILL don't pack properly. (the one with canvas shoes last year was our SPL at the time)

 

I ran this by my son (13 and FC, almost Star) and he agreed that a personal pack inspection 1 or 2 weeks before would 'teach' him much more than any lecture, and help him know exactly what was needed. Ha also said that there's nothing he would put in his pack, that he thought he would need during those two weeks, so he would probably just ADD to his pack and not totally re-pack it before the trip. He is typical of many of the boys his age, so I tend to trust his opinion on what works.

 

What would you do?

 

Would you push the pre-trip pack inspection to the PLC? (originally pack inspection was announced as Mandatory for trip participation - the SPL and JASM changed it when the date for the meeting was pushed into Christmas break)

 

would you simply offer it to those boys who wished to have their packs inspected?

 

or would you let it go, chalk it up to a learning experience and let them be cold?

 

 

laura

 

[eisely]

Pack checks for everybody are always a good idea before a major event such as this. The adults and experienced scouts should also set the example by making their packs available.

 

The pack check provides a teaching opportunity and will help avoid serious mistakes. For backpacking in particular, a kid who brings too much stuff is also burdening the rest of the group. So a pack check serves multiple purposes.

[mk9750]

Checking packs in this instance is vital. It should not be overlooked.

 

Of course, it should be the boys checking them. The way we have done this is to have everyone bring their pack the Tuesday before the weekend event. the SPL unpacks his pack completely, and verifies that he has everything on a checklist, and that he can justify carrying anything else not on the list. The ASPL does the same thing. Then the Troop splits into Patrols, and the Patrol leader does the same thing. Once everyone has seen a few of the leaders' packs inspected, they have an idea what needs added or subtracted, and why. After that, they leave it up to the boys to decide whether to add or subtract anything.

 

Boys who have had a history of mispacking always seem to be in the crosshairs of their PL until they prove they can pack properly. Our guys are considering eliminating the pack inspection for all but new guys to a specific high venture event. It's become more time consuming than the value it provides, as everyone seems to pack well unless they are new to an event.

 

Mark

[Mike F]

For normal activities in more benign conditions, Id say let the guys develop a checklist ahead of time (that you review), pack their own stuff, and work equipment checks within patrols. In these cases, the missing stuff is likely to be no more serious than minor chill, hunger, etc.

 

When the stakes are high, everybody gets checked including adults. Not only would it be irresponsible for us to expose one of the youth under our watch to undue danger, its also poor teamwork. You wouldnt think about letting your buddy start rappelling down the cliff without a double check of his gear. Same thing applies to extreme temperatures, white water, etc. Dont think of it as hand-holding think of it as part of the buddy system.

 

[scoutingagain]

In addition to the packs, don't overlook the obvious. We have all our scouts show us a winter hat, boots and good pair of gloves before we go in the winter. It seems like there's always one or two that forget them on the way out the door to get to the meeting area, or worse there's someone that wants to count a baseball cap as a winter hat and that's all they have. These are usually newer scouts or some of the scouts that don't camp as much in the winter.

 

If it was just a matter of comfort I'd be happy to let them get cold for a while. But we can run into potential frostbite conditions and I would not want a kid to lose an ear, finger or toes or go into hypothermia.

 

The other thing is to keep talking to them. I've found that some of the kids are reluctant to come forward if they are cold. They don't want to seem like a wuss. If you keep talking to them you can get an idea of how their doing and help make mid-course corrections before they get into real trouble. It might sound like I'm patronizing and I don't mean to be. Just passing on some observations of our cold weather camping trips.

 

Good luck.

 

SA

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Push it. Absolutely. For the reasons eisely and Mark said. (Hey, I'm glad I can agree with you guys sometimes!) Just this past weekend (that is yesterday and the day before) I went on a "cold weather camping trip" and we did NOT have a pack check beforehand -- but on the other hand, we were IN a cabin, with protection against the wind, and a wood-burning stove. (It still got pretty cold.) And in a real pinch, our vehicles were within sight on the bottom of the hill. But if you are definitely not using the cabin, I think the pack checks are a must. I'd also add, for boys who have never done the cold-weather camping before, and especially for any boys who have never camped at all, I would have ADULTS check the packs, not the boys. Or maybe better yet, have an older boy check the inexperienced camper's pack WITH an adult as the failsafe. That's just my suggestion.

 

That would also be my suggestion for any backpacking trip (which it sounds like this is not), regardless of weather. If I remember correctly, when my troop (as a boy) went on its first real backpacking trip in several years, EVERYBODY had to bring in their pack for inspection, and after that it may have just been those who were going on their first backpacker or were below a certain age. I forget the details, but you get the idea. Find yourself 7 miles from anywhere without something you really need... or have a 110-pound 11-year-old carrying 15 more pounds than he really needs to be because he doesn't know how to pack... it's not a good thing.

[mk9750]

NJ,

 

Agree or disagree, makes no matter - I love ya man! (And no, that doesn't indicate a softening on my position on the gay issue! LOL)

 

Agree new adults' packs should also be inspected. We do that. I disagree that boys can't do this. If they've developed to the point where there as expert as the adults, they have the ability to protect neebies from harm. I can tell you for sure that I would rather have any of 15 boys in my Troop check my pack than all but two of the adults.

 

Mark

[NJCubScouter]

Mark says:

 

Agree or disagree, makes no matter - I love ya man! (And no, that doesn't indicate a softening on my position on the gay issue! LOL)

 

LOL back atcha, and you didn't need the disclaimer, I took your comment in the spirit with which it was intended.

 

Agree new adults' packs should also be inspected. We do that.

 

I think I either read or wrote something in a confusing manner. I was not writing about new adults' packs, and if someone else was writing about adults' packs, I missed it. I have no problem with an older boy (an experienced cold-weather camper or backpacker as the case may be) checking a new adult's pack. Where I have a bit of a twinge of concern is with the new (or younger) BOY's pack. In other words an 11 year old boy, maybe never been on any camping trip, or one in non-dangerous weather. (Or for a backpacking trip, an 11 year old on his first backpacker.) For this young Scout, I'd like to at least have an adult looking over the shoulder of the older boy who is checking the pack. I agree that there will be many boys who could do a better job than some adults -- but hopefully there is at least one adult in the troop who is the most knowledgeable of all on what equipment to bring, and that is who I want at least supervising the check of the youngest boy's pack. That's all I meant.

 

Also I did not mean to confuse things by adding backpacking trips in here. For a cold-weather trip the main point of the check is to make sure nothing crucial is left out. For a backpacker (assuming no sub-freezing temperatures) a large part of the issue is making sure not too much is being taken along. The real trick comes in with the cold-weather backpacker. But we're not taking the first-time camper along on that one anyway, right?

[Mike F]

I have a minor disagreement about checking for routine, especially weekend, backpacking trips. If they won't get hurt, let them learn the natural consequences of their mistake. Had a scout discover on a weekend trip last spring that he didn't have a sleeping bag! Problem solved by having two buddies unzip their bags - used one each on top and bottom - all three in a 2-person tent. They did fine and his buddies are still giving him a hard time about it before every campout.

Same goes for lugging too much weight. That scout will take a closer look at what he really needs next time. If he's really dragging down the group, the guys should figure out they have to help him out. And then apply the good-natured ribbing before the next time...

Go ahead and let them make mistakes when it won't really hurt them. Those are the lessons they won't forget.

[Sturgen]

im less worried about checking the packs and more worried about your adults, why are they doing so much, if it wont kill the boys let them make a mistake or two, i would ask that you rething your one winter campout, why not say 4 or 5 that way they learn quicker, as an adult leader it is your job to keep them alive the best way to learn is through mistakes and i promise you when they learn that jeans arnt a great idea for a winter hike, they wont do it again, from the sound of things your at a scout resident or other type of camp that you can drive into, so you have a saftey net of a car so if you do get any hypothermic kids who need medical attention that can simply be solved, i compliment you on not taking a key to the cabin, but the next step would be to let the kids teach, learn and live

[red feather]

Pack check yes.

 

This is as much a part of the training as the actual activity. From experience I have learned that even with the check items are removed, forgotten, etc. But the check should be an essential part of Being Prepared.

 

The check should be done by the scouts if they are properly trained or supervised. If they are not then someone qualified to do the check should do it or at least oversee the check.

 

yis

[Bob White]

Shake-downs are a good preparation and safety check. train the older scouts how to do them and let them administer the pack-check.

[LauraT7]

Thanks all!

 

I agree that "The check should be done by the scouts if they are properly trained or supervised."

 

I also wish our adults did not have to be so involved in this - Problem is, even our older boys are NOT as knowledgable as they think they are (in some areas) - or as knowledgable as they SHOULD be. They KNOW this stuff as 'book learning' but haven't internalized it. Some of our Star and Life scouts are the very ones that have shown up outfitted incorrectly. And even though they toughed it out and insisted that they were "OK" - they are then setting a bad example for the younger boys.

 

In the last year, we have turned away from totally 'adult lead' troop to 'boy lead' - so actually we aren't that involved in this trip. But the boys are also not really used to planning ahead, and they resist it. heck, even many of our sdults resist it! The boys have planned the whole trip - the only thing I know about it is that I was asked to drive, so I know which camp we are using, and we've used it before, so I am familiar with the site. For all I know, other than making meals & setting up camp - we may spend the entire time playing cards - or they may have some kind of program planned.

 

another adult, our past SM who is now the Venture Crew leader, was asked by the PLC to 'give the talk' for the benefit of the newer scouts. I volunteered some personal equipment for the trip and the demo.

 

None of the boys going are first time campers, however; about half have never been camping after early October or before April in Northern Illinois. I want them to REALLY get this stuff early - so that when THEY are the Stars, Lifes, and SPL, they really DO know how to prep for such a trip and will be doing it all themselves and teaching it to the new, younger boys.

 

Besides, we have a family that has vacant forest land in WI where we can REALLY make a "rough it" camp someday and possibly do snow shelters. Some of the boys would really like to sleep in snow shelters, but to do that - they REALLY have to 'Be Prepared!" for the cold, wet weather!

[cheffy]

Our winter campout is always at the end of January. We start winter training in late November. Two weeks before the campout we start pack inspections. After the packs are approved by the adult inspection team they are tagged a with a card on a twist tie. If the boys take anything out of the pack they are to write it on the card as a reminder to replace it. If they show up at departure time and there are things lsited on the card they are double checked and made sure they are there.

If the scout doesn't have a tag he doesn't go. Yes ther have ben soe last minute calls to adults by boys asking or an inspection but the 2 or 3 calls sure beats frostbite.

[buffalo2]

Cheffy I liked the idea of a tag for last-minute items as much as I didn't like the 'adult inspection team'. The place for adults in this process is to turn their packs out for inspection first, and then stand by to take questions. Let your older Scouts do this after their gear is inspected (by each other)

Might not be a bad time to invite parents in to see what some of this stuff looks like (although that might make a reasonable static display at a Court of Honor) Lots of the gear problems that younger Scouts have can be attributed to miscommunication with their parents... And don't forget those Weblos dens!