Min age to EARN the Eagle Rank

[mk9750]

OGE,

 

My mind was wandering down the same path yours did. Can you imagine how outrageous someone has to be to get FOG worried he's going to sound like Bob?

 

I think FOG used the best analogy on this topic (hitting the soccer ball with a 2" x 4"). FOG, you do realize that one is likely to boonerang on you, right?

 

Sturgen,

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your Troop does what it does because you believe it is in the best interest of the boys in your Troop. If so, if you really have the best interest at heart, please reread the posts from those who differ with you with as much objectivity as you can. Your methods are not Scouting's methods, and most of what you describe as your methods really don't help accomplish the Aims of the BSA, IMVHO.

 

If you can't reread these post objectively (it is difficult to try to be objective when people are attacking a position you hold dear), try this: Make an appointment with your District Executive or Scout Executive and discuss your philosophies with him or her. They are the profesionals that are required to understand the program and why it is what it is (the rest of us only Promise to know, understand, and deliver the Program as designed). Let them give you their reasons for why you should alter your actions. If you do this, I'd love to hear the results.

 

Good luck to your Scouts.

 

Mark

[Sturgen]

nlds-

1. Won't tell us who he really is or what troop he is from.

 

in my council i am known by the name of sturgen by most, its not this board but the internet i dont trust and never give out my birth name, if you look at my profile i give you my council name, and the city in whic i reside, if you realy wish to know the troop number, call the counci and ask them what troop is the greatest thorn in their side.

 

2. Has a bunch of radical whacked out idea's on how troops should be run.

 

radical yes, whacked out no, it was once thought radical to wear a short sleaved shirt, times change, i hope im just ahead of the times

 

3. Has deceided that everyone else is wrong and his troop is right.

 

I have observed such, i wanted to see if there were any other troops out there with similar ideas, and to offer my ideas to others, to start my glorious revolution

 

4. Look at the numbers he quoted for eagle project. Minimum of 500 hrs, thats like 100 days of work, and one that had 4000, thats like 800 days of work.

 

Perhaps i should have said man hours, for the increadably dence, which isnt that hard when you have even four or five boys working at any one time, in regards to the 4000 hr one that was building a disabled skiers chalet on a local ski mountain, which had alot of labor from sources outside of the troop, contractors, architects, concrete companies, etc, and since im sure that your going to mention the 1/4 of the hours thing, thats to prove leadership, and aslong as you have 6 people at all times outside of planning your able to pull that off normally

 

Maybe not but I smell a TROLL or an agitator looking to stir everyone up:

 

Actually you smell a fat white ugly fish, and yes i know sturgeon is the correct spelling but the name is Sturgen

obviously you never read the first post:

"I just thought i would see what people here think, and stir up some debates"

I think my goal has been completed, i know who hear is moderate, who hear are bible thumpers, or more accuratly handbook thumpers, i have a pretty good idea who has gone through woodbadge robot production and who is simply there for the boys

 

to the rest i resent the fact that we make a "shambles", "mess", etc of the bsa with our "whacked out" troop, just remember that they always call the revolutionaries crazy, and its that insanity that allows them to win in the end

 

mk-

i dont know about other councils, but mine seems to be dominated by individuals that believe the best course of action to resolve any issues is to kick those bringing up issues out, a brief example, we had a rifle instructor who ran the range in a manner in which we were afraid that someone would get shot, we wrote the council program director, the council executive, and the camp director (gold looper) and told them of the issue, (two bsa nra rifle instructors and two bsa archery instructors as well as 5 other return staffers signed the letter) we were all threatened to be fired if we took any further action, btw, the director continued to fire cross range, point weapons at or almost at scouts, run a rifle and shotgun range at the smae time with one 21 yr old, fire shotgun on the rifle range while scouts were trying to qualify, throw scouts hats out in the dirt and shoot at them, we know of another individual who was kicked out for demanding supplies for his area. i would like to stay in the bsa. i am very aware what the DE and CE would say,as well as the letter i would be getting the next day inviting me to leave or have charges trumped up against me, hence why i am waiting to bring about change until i know i have others behind my POV, perhaps scouting will never have a renaissance.

 

in closing i have found that this page is dominated by handbook thumpers it seems and it perhaps would be a great resource if i want to know what regulation C217-B8-2D is, but i can call the council office for that, as a source for unique opinions on what policy ought to be there seems to be little if any use to post on hear unless perhaps you can ban BobW, OGE and FOG, not saying that you should just that the three simply quote regs, im sure all are highly involved in the adult leader robot program(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

[Fat Old Guy]

Mark said, "FOG, you do realize that one is likely to boonerang on you, right?"

 

Nah. Last time I smacked a soccer ball with a 2x4 it went pretty straight. Not too far but straight.

 

Sturgen opined (amid hundreds of spelling errors), " . . . im sure all are highly involved in the adult leader robot program"

 

Thanks. I haven't had such a good laugh for days.

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Still chuckling. Dang, you're funny.

 

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Gotta tell this one at Roundtable. Har!

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Man oh Man

 

I get to be lumped in with Bob White and FOG in the same sentence, on the grounds of merely quoting regulations and being a robot, this is the Twilight Zone

 

So you are looking for other people who share your idea's?

 

This may be a place to find some

 

Oh, BTW, Welcome to the Forum,

 

Advice to other Forum Members

 

...time to buckle your seatbelts, its going to be a bumpy ride...

 

[Sturgen]

OGE, i dont mean to lump you in, but you are one to quote regs, although you are by far not as outlandish as the other two

[Fat Old Guy]

Still laughing. They used to say, "Laughter is the best medicine." After reading this, I may live forever.

[NJCubScouter]

I just want to pick out a fairly trivial aspect of this that caught my eye. Something was said about a unit being a "thorn in the side" of council, and apparent pride at being the thorn unit. It reminds me of when I got involved as an active Cub Scout parent and then den leader, and gradually figured out that the then-leaders of the pack loved to be a thorn in the side of the council and district, like routinely ignoring communications; no training or attendance at RT; skipping things like Scouting for Food; making a spectacle of the pack at Cub Camporees by (among other things) having campfires in our site that shot flames 20-30 feet in the air that were clearly visible (and audible, joined in by loud talking) at midnight from other units' campsites (not to mention being unsafe); and submitting charter paperwork late and usually at the last possible minute before an actual lapse occurred (and one time they missed that too though I think it was papered over later on). The Cubmaster once told me, "those guys really don't like us, but we don't care." (I cleaned up what he actually said.)

 

Because this is the way life goes, the powers that be finally lost all patience with our pack at just about the same that almost the entire pack leadership "graduated," quit or faded away for various reasons, to be replaced by leaders (including me as ACM) who wanted to "get with the program," so to speak. It didn't stop us from having to deal with things like being assigned campsites at Cub Camporees that mortal men, boys and vehicles could barely get to in one piece, or being referred to as "oh, those guys" by the commissioner-types. We made a concerted effort to demonstrate to the powers that be that there was a new sheriff in town (like six of us showing up for the same session of leader training, and sending someone to every RT), and after a fairly short time, we were no longer the thorn in the side, and knocking on the door of Quality Unit, though we just missed in my last year.

 

There is really nothing to proud about in being the thorn, there is only an eventual payback that doesn't do the boys any good.

[Sturgen]

we involve ourselves with some of the important council events (ie scouting for food) although we do not attend camporee's, scoutaromas and other such things as a unit. i have no problem in participating in said events but if the boys would rather go on a 10 mile backpacking trip, im going to by far support the real camping and not the car camping, we make a decided effort and almost always are successful in having two overnight hikes, skis, snowshoes, or boat trips every month, at all of these the boys sleep in tarps or natural shelters, not tents, unless required by the location. we stridently oppose the popcorn drive and other fundraising, being as we raise all the money we need through an annual pasta dinner, sales of a bronze statue of two of our scouts, "footsteps to the future" (you may know it, its also used for the national merit award in scouting i believe) we do not however leave the council bare, we donate $5 per boy to FOS as a troop, out of the general funds as well as carry a subscription to boys life for every family (4 groups of siblings are in the troop at this point) and paying for the membership fee for both boys and adults to join the unit, as i have said we attend the local res camp most every summer, along with a 50/100 mile backpacking trip, a 150-200 mile bike, 30 mile shakedown backpack, along with an occasional rock or mountain climbing trip (dont worry two of the SM's are instructors for the mountaineers)

[Sturgen]

(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

[scoutingagain]

Sturgen,

 

I'll admit to being a fan of the underdog. I'm a Red Sox fan and before that grew up in NJ rooting for the Mets. (Never have liked the Yankees, except the real ones in Maine.) I was once called a true non-conformist in High School, because I didn't smoke pot, drink and went to scout meetings. I did have shoulder length hair just to confuse people. I considered it one of the high compliments I ever got. I can sympathize with those that march to their own drummer.

 

But I can't agree with your appoach. If you truly want to effect change I suggest you look at how your message is being received by those that can make change. Being a thorn is not usually very successful. Your approach reminds me of Tax Protesters that refuse to pay taxes because they disagree with the way the government spends our money. The result is they usually either end up paying taxes or losing their house. There is little change effected.

 

True change is more often effected by those that work within the system and are patient.

 

It maybe fun sometimes in playing the revolutionary but my expereince is you "catch more flys with honey." The best information you've gotten so far comes from Mark. Take a long look at how your troop does things and examine how or if it advances the aims of scouting.

 

Just my two cents.

 

SA

 

 

 

[NeilLup]

Hello Sturgen,

 

Woodbadge robot production, eh!!

 

It would sound to me as if some of the leaders in your Troop have an industrial strength chip on their shoulder. Don't knock Wood Badge personally if you haven't tried it

 

Your Troop sounds pretty neat. Great program,etc. One of the problems that the BSA has is producing a program which everybody can be reasonably successful with. I suspect that the level of involvement and commitment in you unit's leaders is very great relative to most leaders.

 

I do have some problem with your Boards of Review as outlined. It could become Lord of the Flies and I'm not sure how it is an experience that is generally transferrable to other aspects of life. You know that it is contrary to the BSA Advancement guidelines, I don't need to beat that to death.

 

The youngest Eagle Scout that I have personal knowledge of earned the award at 12 years, 2 months. When he aged out, he had earned 4 Silver Palms (I believe), Hornaday Award, statewide recognition for some other projects, was a deacon in his church, etc.

 

Should he have been forced to wait? Tough question. I, for one, am reluctant to suggest age as a defining requirement for Eagle Scout because you may exclude young men like this one. On the other hand, I am very tired of hearing "I got my Eagle at 13, or 12, or 11. (Yes, it is possible to get it at 11 or even 10 under current rules.) I would suggest that the trick is to ensure that young men meet the requirements on their own with their own initiative. If they do, then if they can finish at 12, fantastic!

 

The problem, of course, is most often the parents who push and use the Eagle as another way station toward college and other things.

 

Enjoy your Troop. It sounds most interesting.

[ScouterPaul]

Excuse me if I sound a little confused. Neilup you stated that is is possible for a Scout to earn his Eagle at the age of 10. Based on my knowledge of the requirements the minimum time it would take to earn Eagle would be 17 months. This would require that he earn his Tenderfoot,Second Class and First Class within the first 30 days. During this 30 day period he would have to go on 3 campouts and 7 additional Troop/Patrol Activities other than Troop and Patrol meetings. Further, in order to become a Boy Scout a youth has to meet one of the following: graduate 5th grade, Earn the Arrow of Light or be 11 years old. The AOL requirements state that the the youth must be active for 6 months since either turning 10 years old or graduation from the 4th Grade. In order to earn his Eagle while he is 10 years old - the minimum age for him to graduate from 5th grade would be 9 years,4 months and 29(30) days.

 

YIS

Paul

[Sturgen]

I was going through the troop archives and found some old rosters (1985- 1990) , i decided to take a close look at them and found that for each of the rosters about 50% of the boys on there earned their eagle, the lowest percent was 46 i believe and the highest was 62%, when you consider that national is happy with 1% or 2% being given eagle, 50% earning eagle is dang good if you ask me

[molscouter]

ScouterPaul, do not assume that a boy has to be 10 to have finished the 5th grade. There is a boy (not a Scout) at my son's school who competed in the National Spelling Bee last spring (April I think it was) as a 5th grader. He was 9 at the time. Granted this is a very rare occurence, but it can happen.

[acco40]

Let me be perfectly blunt for all the boneheads out there. The purpose of Scouting is not to produce Eagle Scouts. The purpose (aims to those who took the training) are to develop character, citizenship, and mental and physical fitness. I am saddened to see Eagle Scouts who have, IMO, not developed the above. I do not expect Eagle Scouts to be perfect. However, to see Eagle Scouts knowingly falsify what they are delivering to youth as Scouting because they have a beef with national does not show character or mental fitness. I have seen excellent men and boys who have gone through the Scouting program without obtaining the highest rank. I am proud of the program and of these men. Those who strive for Eagle as a resume builder or as part of a laundry list of accomplishments dishearten me. Earning a Scouting rank should be a result of participation in the program. To participate in the program to earn a rank, regardless of which one, is wrong.