Min age to EARN the Eagle Rank

[mk9750]

Sturgen,

 

I agree with you that there is much value for the vast majority of Scouts by working through the advancement program more methodically than it would take to become an Eagle at 13 or 14. I believe this with all my heart. And I think Saltheart has the proper method for helping that to happen: Adult mentorship to get each Scout to be certain for himself that they have met the requirements. In this manner, those very, very few boys who meet the requirements properly at an early age are rewarded for their legitimate effort. And, on the flip side, this would prevent another problem I have witnessed. I have seen circumstances where a boy had NOT made Eagle by the time he was 17 or 17.5, and it became almost a "well, he's gotten this far. We can't let him fail now. What do we need to do to make this happen for him?" scenerio. This is no better than an Eagle that is "too young".

 

However, I have three very significant problems with your Troop's philosophy. The first is your comment about the SM's role as only dealing with the SPL and the JASMs. You're right, training the boys in these two important jobs is the most identifiable role a SM has in a boy run Troop. But that is by no means his only role. EVERY boy deserves his SM to get to know him, understand him, and help guide him to be the best man he can be. This is not a job to be delegated to youth leadership. This is a job specifically and soley for the SM and the ASMs. Any SM who maintains a hands - off approach except for the SPL and JASMs is not doing the most rewarding of his jobs.

 

Secondly, your boy run Board of Review, quite frankly, is a horrendous idea. First, as Bob White is fond of saying, you might be doing this in a Scout uniform, but it isn't Scouting. Second, a Board of Review is not a test. It is an opportunity for the Troop Committee (which are all adults over 21) to review the program from the boy's perspective to assure that the program is meeting the Aims and Methods of Scouting. Although I would applaud a committee of boys meeting to review their efforts in this regard, an individual's BOR is not the place for them to do this.

 

And third, one of the benefits boys get from a BOR is the opportunity to interact with adults, leading them to become more comfortable when other instances, like job interviews, come the boy's way. By taking away this very importnat aspect of the Scouting program, you deprive a Scout valuable life experience.

 

I personally like the idea of a boy review of skills before a requirement is signed off. We do this as much as possible in our Troop. A boy learns the skill, he practices (at campouts and Troop competitions), and then he is tested, usually by an older Scout. We also provide an opportunity for a Scout to teach the skill to someone else to reinforce it, but this is not a part of the requirment. But once an older Scout has initialled the boy's book as requirement complete, it's complete, and no one - Not SM, not boys, not SPL, and not BOR can undo this.

 

Don't get me wrong, I generally agree with your premise that young Eagle Scouts are rarely good Eagle Scouts. But it does happen (look back through DSteele's history in this forum. You'll meet a man who single handedly convinced me that it isn't impossible to be a 13 year old Eagle). And to create a rule that would prevent even one guy who deserves the rank would be wrong.

 

Welcome to the forum. I hope you find guidance here. Even when we disagree, we usually won't bite. Please don't take anything personally. Almost everyone here can hate the idea and still like the person.

 

Mark

[nldscout]

Sturgen

Can you tell us what troop this is?

[NJCubScouter]

I'm just picking out one subject here, boy-run boards of review. Of course, for those of us who were involved in Scouting at the time of the "big change" in 1972-1973, we know that Scouting adopted boy-run boards of review through First Class. They still existed when I left my old troop in 1976, but no longer existed when I next picked up a handbook in 2002. My guess would be that this went "out" in the late 70s or early 80's when a number of the other early-70's innovations (like taking Camping MB off the Eagle-required list) were un-done.

 

In case my reason for pointing this out is unclear to anyone, it is that the BSA experimented with boy-run BOR's in the lower ranks, evaluated the results, and (relatively quickly I am guessing) decided that it was not a good idea. A troop that adopts this approach now is using a method that was tried, given a chance, and failed. And of course, that is over and above the fact that you are not authorized to do it. And I don't just mean "wrong," which it is. I also mean that someone someday may get "caught" on this when going for Eagle. He will have BOR's for lower ranks signed by someone who is not authorized to sign, and someone at the district level might know someone and start asking questions. (It is unlikely but possible.) Or, Sturgen, does an adult sign off after the boys "vote"? In which case that adult is creating another problem because they are signing off that something happened (a BOR with adult committee members) when it never happened.

 

As for the Eagle issue itself, Sturgen, it looks very much like your troop has added to the requirements. It may seem to make sense within your troop. However, a boy has a right to make Eagle in your troop using the same criteria and requirements as in any other troop -- and that means, if the boy completes the requirements for Eagle at 12, he gets it at 12. If you see boys making Eagle without actually earning it, that is a different issue. You capitalized EARN in the title of your post, and that is the right word to capitalize. Whether 12 or 17+364 days (as was the most recent Eagle in my son's troop, and I am not exaggerating), if you earn it, you should get it and you don't you shouldn't. Inventing a minimum age is not the answer.

[EagleInKY]

DS -

 

I have met a few remarkable young men who earned Eagle around 13-14. My own brother earned it at 14. You certainly sound like one of those people.

 

My post was speaking about generalities, and generalities generally get you in trouble on a board like this. As I stated, there are a handful of undeserving Eagles "at various ages". Even 1 day short of 18, a Scout can be undeserving of his rank. I hope all Troops can adopt a program as close to the "true model" as possible. I would not like to see us fall back into some of the failed methods of the 70s and 80s that many of us lived through.

 

On the topic of the troop affecting the time it takes to earn Eagle, our troop does do one thing that deals with this issue. We don't allow the boys to take several of the Eagle MBs at Scout Camp. We do not feel that the Citizenships or a few others are taught and tested at the level which should be required for these important MBs. We offer these annually through counselors approved by the troop committee. This almost guarantees that a boy won't earn Eagle at 13. But, the reason we do it is not as much about the age of the Eagle, but in making sure the Scouts are taught and tested at a quality level with these critical MBs.

[Rooster7]

I have three boys. The two oldest earned Eagle at 16. The youngest earned his Eagle just prior to 14. I have some observations -

 

1) I am guilty of parental pressure - to the point that I prodded them to do the next badge or whatever it was that they needed to get done next.

 

2) While my 14 year-old is not as mature as my other sons were when they earned their badges, he did EARN his badge. No one bent the requirements. No one did the work for him. The troop is not an Eagle mill.

 

3) So far, all of my sons have remained active in their troops. My oldest (20) is too old to be a Scout, but he works at a BSA summer camp each year. As does his younger brother (17), who is the current SPL.

 

4) My 14 year-old, one of three ASPLs, may not stay active in the troop as long as my other sons. However, this is not because he obtained Eagle at an early age, but because he prefers to spend his time with the church youth group (which also has a very active program).

 

I understand and agree to some extent that younger scouts, who earn Eagle, often do not gain as much benefit from the program as older boys. However, this is a generalization. And as is true for all generalization, it cannot be stated as being true - all the time - for all individuals.

 

 

 

[dsteele]

EagleinKY:

 

I have no trouble with your posts and was not offended.

 

My point is only that some young people earn eagle at a young age. I happened to be one of them, because it was my goal to earn it before my 14th birthday. Like all Eagle Scouts, I had plenty of help -- from both seen and unseen sources. I have been paying for the rank ever since and have dedicated my professional life to Scouting.

 

In my particular case, Scouting is the gift that keeps on giving as well as being the gift that keeps on taking.

 

DS

[Sturgen]

I must admit now that my "revolutionary" beliefs tend to bring up issues like this often, which i guess was kind of the point of me bringing this up, i, to an extent, wanted to see if there were any other individuals in scouting with opinions comparable to mine, a little background on my troop, although i would rather not mention the number, it is located in the western region and has long been this way, for atleast 35 years, since the current scoutmaster took the postition for a brother who had a son in the troop. from that date untill the mid 90's he was the only acting scoutmaster at which point several men joined as ASM's in the past decade, two have sons in the troop, 2 have had sons in the troop who droped out although the dads remained active, and 2 are 19-22 yr old eagles from the troop, i was not aware of the 70's shot at boy run boards, which is most likely the founding of such in my troop. in regards to a comittee, we do have a standing commitee which observes the BOR for general rank and Eagle, however they allow the boys to make the decision and sign off on such. I am quite aware that many of the policies are against national policy, but in my time i have seen enough rullings made at the national, regional, and council level to know that they are not infallible. I am not saying it isnt possible that a 14 yr old can earn eagle, im simply saying that in my years in scouting i have NEVER met one, i will admit i do not have as many years on my pack as FOG or OGE, but as a camp staffer you see alot of boys, and work with alot of them, i also ran part of a camporee , where a compass course, built for the 14 yr olds in my troop, stumped several eagles. my point is that i have worked alot with a broad range of youth from all over the western states and have yet to meet one boy under 14 i can proudly say hes and Eagle Scout, i know a few guys that earned eagle at 15 and after a few years i was proud to say the same thing, and i know a few more that earned the rank at 16 who at that date deserved it in my opinion, and in contrast i know pitty eagles who were given the rank at 18 - 1 day, which is unfortunate, but i still maintain that 16 is the earliest that i have ever observed someone to earn the rank.

i would like to state, for the record, that im not saying any of you out there have recieved the eagle rank at 12-15 did not earn it, by the fact youre still involved in scouting most likely i would be honored to consider myself as part of your group, however i never knew any of you back then, so i cant testify to your qualifications in my opinion.

i have brought some of these issues at the district and council level and as you might not be surprised brought up alot of resentment. Is it so wrong that if i see a problem in an organization i love, and have spent 3/4 of my life in, that i try to solve it, not to be melodramatic but when a serious problem is seen in an organization, is it not the right, no the responsablity of those aware of the issue to bring about change. i am well aware of the BSA's resistance to change, as i have had my job threatened for bringing up saftey, program, and leadership issues at my scout camp.

[Fat Old Guy]

"i will admit i do not have as many years on my pack as FOG or OGE,"

 

Yep, those of us who are "early dead" are proud of our years. The great thing is that unless something goes drastically wrong for you, you're going to be here some day. ;-)

 

" but as a camp staffer you see alot of boys, and work with alot of them, i also ran part of a camporee , where a compass course, built for the 14 yr olds in my troop, stumped several eagles."

 

Yep. Seen that. I still remember my disbelieve when an Eagle at a Webelos event couldn't show the Webelos how to tie two half hitches. All my life, I had looked at Eagle Scouts as "guys who knew cool stuff. Guy stuff. Knives, knots, fire, first aid. Good stuff."

 

What's the solution? I will never think that the headlong rush toward advancement that I see, usually driven by the parents, is good for Scouting.

 

Is your system good? Mebbe. Is it better? Mebbe. The Girl Scouts highest award cannot be earned until you have stuck with the program well into high school. Is this good? Mebbe, it keeps the Girls who want to earn it in the program.

 

The problem is, your system isn't the system (boy do I sound like someone else?). I may have my complaints about the system and I voice them but I work within them. As much as I'd like to, I won't make a Scout wait until he's earned 2nd Class before he starts working on First Class requirements. I grumble and I write letters. If I was really motivated, I'd keep my mouth shut, play the game and get a seat on a big time committee.

 

Maybe if you work it right, you could wind up on a National committee in 20 years and work to change things. Right now though, your guys are playing soccer on a hockey rink.

[Sturgen]

dont worry we use crampons so actally soccer on a hockey rink works out just fine, atleast when we use armor grade leather for the ball

[Bob White]

Sturgen, What makes you think that the Eagle Rank needs to be any more difficult to earn than is right now. Thast year over 95% of scouts did not reach eagle and that is the lowest percetage to not reach Eagle in the history of the program.

 

If it's true that in Your troop a scout csnnot reach eagle until they are 17 or 18 than you again are in violation of the BSA advancement policies and need to stop what you are doing, it is not the scouting program. You have neither the right or authority to alter advancement requirements.

 

Have you ever read the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual?

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

[Sturgen]

why should it be more difficult, because its easy enough for immoral idiots to earn, and bobby good sir, if you havnt noticed i have a fairly good hold on what BSA policy is, still doesnt make it the right policy, i supose if national proclaimed that on december 21st you have to hop up and down on one foot while saying aroot bong with your teath covered by your lips and arms flapping like a bird you would be out making a fool of yourself in a few days

i also resent the implication that i am being anything but truthfull, and by the way we happen to be in america where the scoutmaster and his assistants have the RIGHT to do anything considered legal by the good old U.S. of A.

[Fat Old Guy]

Ah Sturgen, you can't use extreme examples with Bob White because his standard reply is "that isn't likely to happen."

 

As for rights, at the risk of sounding like Bob White, a Scoutmaster no more has the right to change the program than a soccer coach has the right to tell his goaltender to whack the ball with a 2x4. (In retrospect that sounds nothing like Bob White). When you signed up in soccer, you and your coach agreed to abide by the the rules of US Soccer, FIFA, NFHS, or another sanctioning body. In soccer, you can bend some rules and you can stretch the rules but when you get caught you pay penalties. When your SM and you signed on to play the game of Scouting, you agreed to abide by the rules and rights really don't enter into the question.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

....You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone....

 

Sturgeon my man, you are incredible, I have to give you that, you have Bob White and FOG arguing on the same side of the fence, which is no mean feat I must tell you.

 

At any rate, what do you hope to accomplish posting here, you already knew before you started that your Troop makes a shambles out of the BSA Program, so what do you hope to accomplish by posting here?

[nldscout]

lets add some things up

 

1. Won't tell us who he really is or what troop he is from.

 

2. Has a bunch of radical whacked out idea's on how troops should be run.

 

3. Has deceided that everyone else is wrong and his troop is right.

 

4. Look at the numbers he quoted for eagle project. Minimum of 500 hrs, thats like 100 days of work, and one that had 4000, thats like 800 days of work.

 

Maybe not but I smell a TROLL or an agitator looking to stir everyone up. If you are who you really say Sturgen, then why not provide us some proof of who you really are.

 

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

" thats like 100 days of work,"

 

If you have 15 guys who put in three weekends, that's 75 days (450 hours). Let's add in all the planning and prep time and 500 isn't that much of a stretch.