Min age to EARN the Eagle Rank

[Sturgen]

I just thought i would see what people here think, and stir up some debates.

 

What do you THINK the min age for a scout to EARN the Eagle Rank should be?

 

Personaly i am proud to be from a troop where you do not have a choice but to wait untill 17, almost 18, but i am fine with 16 yrs of age.

But as an Eagle, i find it insulting to see 12, 13 and 14 yr olds running around wearing the patch and or badge when they cant even tie a square knot, or even better they cant remember much about thier project because "[thier] mommy handled all of that stuff" as a star scout i have taught many an "eagle" basic scouting skills they should have mastered while earning merit badges. My primary reason for believing such a late age to be best is that in all of the young boys i have witnessed go through my troop, as both a boy and a leader, and the thousands of boys i have seen as a summer camp staffer it is my observation that untill the age of 14 99.9% of boys have about a 00.1% chance of retaining anything

 

I am not asking for the BSA's official answer, unless you actually agree with it, i can add up the months between ranks(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

[OldGreyEagle]

So you thinks its ok and proper to screw up Boy Scouts advancement program ?

 

The minimum age that a boy should be an Eagle is the age he is at when he earns Eagle, having satisfactorily met all the requirements. If you have a parent problem deal with parents, not by messing with the program(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[saltheart]

As much as there may be many of us who have our own (secret?) opinions regarding the 'appropriate' minimum age at which a Scout should be able to earn the Eagle Award, none of us are at liberty to change the program, rules, guidelines, and whatever else as published by the Boy Scouts of America. And that includes the age at which a boy can earn the Eagle.

 

For sure, there are Scouts who may never deserve the Eagle, at any age. But then there may be those deserving few who can, indeed, meet muster at a surprisingly early age. In such an instance, who are we to deny them? Rules to dictate and age to earn this or that in Scouting other than what exists in the handbook aren't in the best interests of the program or the Scouts. Adult leadership that can mentor and guide the Scout through the steps he must follow on the trail will be the best guide to the age at which a particular Scout should earn the Eagle, or any award.

 

I would be among the first to put voice to the opinion that few, very few 13 or even 14 year olds are capable of showing what it takes to earn the Eagle. But you wouldn't find my name on a list of persons supporting a rule regarding a minimum age. Fact is that there are many 17-18 year olds who can't step up to the task. Minimum age wasn't set in stone by those who created the program, so I won't attempt to alter that. I can, though, use my position, training, and talents to help guide an enthusiastic and energetic young Scout on his way, making certain that he is truly ready for each and every next step along the trail to Eagle. If it turns out that he grabs the brass ring long before I thought he might, and made the mark at each turn along the way...good for him....no matter what age.

[nldscout]

Sturgen

Explain to us how your troop stops you from earning eagle until you are 17? I am real curious about how they do that.

[nldscout]

Sturgen

Explain to us how your troop stops you from earning eagle until you are 17? I am real curious about how they do that.

[KoreaScouter]

OGE's right on the money, of course. If every Scout were cut from the same template, you could set a minimum age. They're not, so you can't. One of the greatest things about Scouting is one of the promises we make up front; that is, that you're competing only with yourself -- let's screw that up and call it a good thing, shall we? It reminds me of the endless formation runs I've done, when the guys who normally run faster than the guidon-bearer are all cramped up by the end, because they've had to hold themselves back.

 

I, too, would be interested in knowing how one enforces a 17-and-up policy at the unit level, for the same reason I slow down to observe the cleanup efforts at a traffic accident...for the forensics.

 

If I were a leader in such a unit, I would expect to get many more requests for transfer forms than Eagle Project Workbooks...

 

KS

[Sturgen]

Let me try to address each concern seperatly:

why is it wrong to evolve rules from how they were founded its been done before, merit badges are constantly becomeing easier, i remember reading that dads could earn the eagle rank, i do forget when this was but i think it was 40's or 50's, life evolves, back when scouting was founded, kids had to grow up alot faster, a 14 yr old was expected to have a job and be able to care for himself, this is no longer true

 

as to how this "screw up Boy Scouts advancement program" i would like to know, it does change it, but if we presume boy scouts is here to help the boys, it does, from my observation 80% of those boys that get eagle at 14ish drop out within a few months, therefore eliminating an "older" scout from your troop and therefore a leader and instructor, i must note that i come from a boy run troop and this is vital for such a troop to run with out adults butting in, this also keeps these older kids involved in a program that i know you will all agree is one of the best in the world for turning boys into men

please dont mention "what about their selfesteem", the greatest crock of the 20th cent.

 

And OGE your right and of the eagles i have met only those over 16 have actualy EARNED the rank, hence my aggreement that 16 would be appropriate, please note that it is not the job of the adults to guide the new boys, ideally the SM should guide the SPL and/or JASM alone and allow those older boys to guide the younger scouts

 

nldscout: thanks for asking and not fighting, its actually very simple, using scout lead boards of review and very high expectations in following the scout law and oath as well as leadership skill most scouts dont earn their star untill 14 and life untill 16, not enforced but just average, that leaves more than enough time to plan and carry out a project, also making the requirements to earn eagle more difficult also helps, for starters each scouts project is expected to have atleast 500 hrs of labor, i have worked on ones as a scout in my troop with 4000 hrs of labor, and only one quarter of those hours may be the potential eagles, forcing him to train his replacements. If you tell the boys when they join that signing up with this troop means youre going to be here for 7 yrs before you earn your eagle this gives them ample opportunity to find another troop if they wish, ignore KISKIF, make it hard, make it fun

 

as surprising as it may sound the transfers from our troop to another are very low, weve had two boys that transfered to one of the "better troops" according to council, and they both droped with in 3 months because "if [they were] going to earn eagle [they] wanted to do it right", our drop out rate is actually below the national and council average, while the porportional number of eagles is actually higher than the council average. (on a side note we have several scouts transfer into our troop from other local units)

 

in closing i would like to say that though i see where you are comming from, making changes isnt always screwing something up, im sure someone is going to start spamming me with viri for this but the designers and current leaders (national/regional/council) are not perfect, they make mistakes, it is the job of the troop leaders to correct these mistakes when they can, i would love nothing more than make a change at the national level, but since that will never happen, i am proud to atleast improve the program for one unit

[scoutingagain]

I concurr that most young men would have a difficult time meeting all the requirements for Eagle before they reached High School age. However I see no reason for a troop specific rule that is not consistent with the national program or policy.

 

My guess is most young Eagle scouts are products of advancement mills that are not using the program as intended. i.e. I'm guessing such scouts are products of troops that schedule 2-3 Eagle Required merit badges every year as a part of troop meetings and every outing has specific advancement activities scheduled by adults. They may also schedule special merit badge weekends or meetings. Essentially advancement is spoon fed to the scouts almost like school. There is little individual initiative involved. It's no wonder those that reach Eagle in such an environment drop out, because I can't imagine it's much fun. Most of the time these meetings and outings are scheduled by well meaning adults that believe the point of the program is advancement.

 

If, on the other hand, advancement comes as a consequence of participation and individual initiative, I'll bet most scouts can achieve the Eagle rank by age 15 or 16 if they are active and not involved in many other activities. For others that may need to balance scouting with sports, band and other activities that may on occasion limit their participation, they should still be able to reach the rank of Eagle by age 17 or 18 if they remain reasonable active.

 

I don't mean to sound like Bob White, but if things are running well I don't see a reason for the troop rule.

 

So, Sturgen, my question would be, in absence of your troop rule(I also would be curious how this is enforced), if a scout actively participated in troop activities, camp and sought out merit badges, service projects and leadership opportunities on their own, what would be youngest age that you think a scout could achieve the rank of Eagle participating in your troop?

 

SA

 

 

[EagleInKY]

I don't know if it's possible to come down on both sides of an issue, but here goes. Sturgen - I understand where you come from and share some of the same sentiments. I think those of us who had to work through tougher challenges and earn our Eagle at an older age (I had just turned 17), probably got more out of it than those who sped through the program. It reminds me of a disagreement I had with a graduating Webelos parent a couple of years ago. They chose a troop that would let their boy earn his Eagle as soon as possible because their boy was "more mature" and "much smarter" than the average boy! If you had known this boy you would have died, they were so blind to what he was like to the rest of the world. They also pointed out that he would probably drop out due to peer-pressure after earning Eagle. I figured if anyone was pre-destined to be a 13 year old Eagle dropout, this kid would be it. I hear that he is nearing (if not already earned) Life rank. I'm sure mom and dad are doing a great deal of the work for him.

 

With all that said, I don't want to see the requirements changed. I just wish troops would follow the program as it is designed. Yes, there will be a handful of undeserving Eagles - at various ages. But for the most of us, the journey was a challenge and we are better for it.

[Fat Old Guy]

One thing that I can say for sure is that if National ever adopted an age requirement for Eagle, bote Bob White and OGE would be as for it as they are now against it.

 

Sturgen, I do have to say that your troop sounds interesting. Unusual but interesting. Do you have a troop web site that we could look at?

 

Tell us more more about how your troop is run. Scouts on BORs? One Scout or is the whole board Scouts? What purpose does the Scout serve on the BOR?

 

How quickly do most of your Scouts earn 1st Class? Once a Scout makes 1st Class, do you keep him out of leadership positions so he can't make Star?

 

[Sturgen]

The board of review is lead by the SPL and the board is composed of everyscout over the rank of Scout, the new scout patrols scouts go into another room with thier instructor who tests them on their basic skills durring the board, each scout has a vote with equal weight, and adults have no vote or right to state whether a scout should go up in rank although they may ask questions of the nominee, normally the Senior Patrol, JASM's and any other scout will ask the nominee a question or make a general comment good or bad, then the scout is asked to leave the room, all but the adults and JASM's lower their heads and vote yes or no, it takes 50% to pass normally however if their is an obvious bias or other issue, the scouts are reminded to vote their opinion not thier friendships etc, and a second vote is taken, 3 boys (12, 15, and 16) are working on building a sight, as soon as it is complete i would be more than happy to post the address, i would also be happy to scan relavent parts of our annual report and email them to anyone interested, email me at sturgen611@hotmail.com if you would like a copy, this may take a few weeks to get back to you as i will have to scan, or even better have the historian scan all of the pages and edit out phone numbers etc, but i will get it to you as soon as i can

i believe i mentioned it in my first post but i believe 16 would be the proper age to begin an eagle project, most often leading to a scout earning the rank at the age of 16 or 17(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

[dsteele]

Interesting thread.

 

Are you suggesting I did not EARN my Eagle rank because I was 13 when I passed the Board of Review?

 

BTW --

 

Number of merit badges earned as part of troop meetings = 0

Amount of work done by either parent on my behalf = 0

Pressue placed on me by my parents to acehive the rank by any age =0

 

 

Number of years I stayed with the troop after earning Eagle = 5

Number of years registered in Scouting = 30

 

DS

[Bob White]

Sturgen, What you are doing is in violation of the BSA advancement policies. BORs are required to by done by no less than three members of the troop committee.

 

What you are doing may please you and others but it is not the scouting program. It is not within the policies of the BSA and if you in fact do this you should stop. Any scout who is made to do this(and their parents) should be told that this is not approved or endorsed by the BSA program and they should be told what their options are to address this issue with the council.

 

If you refuse to play by scouting rules have enough integrity to not call it scouting, if you want your own rules start your own program.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutingagain]

DSteele,

 

If your post was directed at mine, no I certainly am not saying you or any specific scout has not earned their Eagle. Just my opinion that I think it would be difficult(not impossible) for a scout to complete all the requirements for Eagle before High School. This is based on my own experience and recollection of my maturity at the time and that of my son's. I could not have done it and I know my son is not focused or mature enough at this point to do it either. It's also based on some advancement activities I've seen in some troops. I'm also certain that there are some exceptional scouts, who are really into scouting, that dedicate their time and energy to scouting that could do it. But like I said, they would be exceptional.

 

My main point was that I didn't think a troop needed to impose a specific rule imposing an age requirement if it has a well rounded program.

 

SA

 

 

[dsteele]

SA:

 

No, my post was not directed at you. I'm actually somewhat bemused by the topic -- I honestly believed that I earned my Eagle badge when I earned it, but I'm not sure that makes me exceptional.

 

A Scout "junkie" yes, but I'm not sure about execptional.

 

I'm curious about Sturgen's reasonse and look forward to seeing it.

 

If he feels the answer to my quesiton is yes, I'll not be offended. But I will be curious to see his argument.

 

Eagle Scout Class of 1979, DOB 12/19/65.

 

DS