Scoutmaster's Conference Delimma

[packsaddle]

Twocub, this problem seems to be established deep within his family interactions and what you're getting is an outcome. There's not much you can do with an outcome and so I like your idea of suspension until his mom says he's interacting well in the family.She and dad need to confront this within the family first and then perhaps there can be a return to the unit. At this point, I doubt that improvement is going to happen quickly either.

 

One other suggestion, find some way to make the boy who was bullied feel good about something. Any kind of friendly positive feedback or praise that can help put a little shine in his life would be good. But it is important to get that bully out of the presence of victims.

[GeorgiaMom]

For what it's worth, this is my take as a parent of a Webelo trying to decide whether or not Boy Scouts is the right place for my son.

 

When I hear about the new scout having dishes thrown at him, I see my son in this position. He is obedient and kind, and also a bit too deferential. He would be totally confused that an older Scout would be behaving in the manner described. He is also learning disabled, and doing his very best to keep up. I would be livid in that parent's shoes. If the troop would not intervene on my son's behalf, I would.

 

As a parent, I send my child to Scouts to learn a higher standard of behavior compared to many other youth activities. I expect the Scout law to be taken seriously, taught, and enforced. I expect my son to follow it (24/7), and I expect the other Scouts to respond in kind.

 

If I were the parent of the younger Scouts being bullied, some of which had left the troop, I would have to wonder why this abusive older boy is being enabled, coddled, and allowed to treat the other boys this way. It is totally contrary to the BSA's advertising of this program to me for my child. I would be very angry that my son was being physically abused in this manner.

 

As a former Cub Scout volunteer, I was told repeatedly by the District, the Pack, and the Council that "every boy deserves Scouting". No matter how the Scout or Scout parent behaved, telling them to leave was just not an option.

 

I think this attitude has been taken to an extreme, to the detriment of the adult volunteers and the well behaved Scouts like my son. Saying "no", or asking a Scout to leave if their behavior is this ridiculous cheapens the program, cheats the Scouts who are behaving well and doing their best, and drives off adult volunteers.

 

Accountability is toothless when telling a Scout to leave the program is not an option.

 

It sounds like this boy has been allowed to run roughshod over the other boys for much too long, years too long. The past can't be changed. I don't think anyone could argue that this boy hasn't been given abundant chances to change, especially after the Saturday conference the OP described.

 

Out of respect for the other Scouts, please get this boy out of troop now. And please do follow up wtih the young Scout who was treated in this manner. Silence = consent. In his family's position, I would be considering whether or not my Scout should return, and I would be very angry on his behalf that my son would be expected to tolerate such behavior.

 

My own experiences and those I read about are leading me to seriously reconsider whether Scouting is right for my son in the future.

 

GA Mom

[Basementdweller]

I haven't post in a while, still reading, this nonsense just makes me want to puke.

 

Scouting is about boys of similar age learning to work together towards a common goal.

 

This gets so diluted by adult interference.

 

Tell the lad he failed on scout spirit because of these events.

 

 

GAmom you going to college to protect your boy from the bad people?????? better he learn to do it at on his own at 12 than 21.

[perdidochas]

GAMom,

 

I understand the sentiment in terms of protecting your kids, however, how can you intervene in your child's behalf, other than talking to the parents (which seems to be a failure)? Are you going to take the older boy out of the Scout meeting and yell at him? Beat him? Call the police on him?

 

It sounds like in this case the troop is intervening. They just haven't finished the process yet.

[mattman578]

Hmm I am reading this thread and following it closely my daughter was a victim of bulling at school and there were no teeth in the no tolerance policy the situation has gotten better they are keeping them separate. So on a scouting note let me tell you what happen in my pack and how we handled it and get your thoughts.

 

We had a camping trip and one of our new tigers and his little brother 1 year younger were involved in two physical altercations. I was his den leader I talked to the other den leaders and we all agree we do not want to have fighting of any kind. So all parties involved needed to write "I am sorry cards" to the other kids or they could not attend pack functions. The other kids mad there cards the Tiger and his little brother never mad the cards and we have not seen them since.

In my mind it worked out fine the Mother (no father involved) told me she thought her kids were being singled out. I think she just did not understand what scouting was about and how we try to teach the kids what is acceptable and what is not how to behave.

I think we really saved our selves a lot of head aches down the road. We nipped it in the bud I think.

 

When a kids does something wrong I think you have a very limited time to correct the behaviour before they forget what they did. So if a scout makes a mistake it needs to be addressed ASAP. They need to know that there actions are not acceptable and that they need to be corrected

[packsaddle]

"singled out" isn't necessarily unfair treatment. It could be the individual attention that is most needed for an individual. I have no problem with 'singling out' someone if that's what is needed.

[Stosh]

Just wait until you have to go into a scout wall tent at summer camp and break up a knife fight. The parents were called to come pick up their boys. Of course they were out of council people and from 2 Midwest states away. At least only one set of parents had to come, the boys were brothers.

 

As first adult on the scene, I only had to disarm them and break up the fight. Camp got the easy part.

 

Another boy was kicked out of a different camp I attended because he stole something from the trading post. They caught him rather quickly because there weren't that many Eagle scouts in attendance that week.

 

BSA helps develop the values of scouting within boys. They don't come that way! For some it's a 7 year process. Others, maybe not so long.

 

I don't know what the world would be like if I got a whole troop full of boys like GAMom's son. I don't think I'd like it. I prefer to watch the progression from young boys to young men.

 

Stosh

[GeorgiaMom]

GAMom,

 

I understand the sentiment in terms of protecting your kids, however, how can you intervene in your child's behalf, other than talking to the parents (which seems to be a failure)? Are you going to take the older boy out of the Scout meeting and yell at him? Beat him? Call the police on him?

 

It sounds like in this case the troop is intervening. They just haven't finished the process yet.

 

It sounds like the troop has allowed this to go on for years, resulting in the loss of multiple well behaved Scouts. I can't honestly agree that they are intervening with appropriate strength and promptness.

 

There have been other situations over the years where my now 9 year old son and 7 year old daughter have been physically abused in school or in a kids' program.

 

When my son was in 1st grade, two 4th graders thought it would be fun to have one hold him while the other slapped him in the face -- on the school bus. A quick call to the school got decisive action, and the two older boys were reassigned to seats behind the driver. Problem solved. I am grateful for a school that doesn't allow bullying.

 

The worst instance of bullying for my kids was when my daughter was six years old and in an evening church AWANA program. When I arrived to pick up my daughter, she was crying in the corner with a big red welt on her face. Her head had been slammed into a table by an older boy. As I entered the room, the same older boy shoved another little one across the room where he slid under a chair and hit his head hard on the seat. I interved to stop the older kid from hurting anyone else and tried to take care of my daughter at the same time. The older kid was totally out of control.

 

I was the only adult in the room. I was the first to arrive for pickup.

 

The teacher had left 10 minutes early to pick up her own child from another program and had left the room totally unsupervised with 16 young kids. After I arrived and tried to calm things down, the leader of the program rushed in to ask "was anyone hurt?". Really? He knew the room was unsupervised but decided to chance it. You might rightfully ask why I wasn't volunteering. I was, in another program at the church.

 

I tried talking to the church and the parent, and got nowhere. Their concern was in "ministering to" the "troubled boy" who hurt my daughter, and they refused to have him leave. My daughter was absolutely terrified to go back, so we changed churches. This necessitated my son also leaving a program with good friends and going elsewhere.

 

So, when I have run into these situations, I do approach the leaders of the activity and the parents of the bully. If neither of those will take responsibility for keeping violence out of the activity, then I have to take my child somewhere else.

 

I find it very frustrating when some adults portray bullying and violence as a normal part of growing up. It isn't. I'm tired of dealing with absentee parents who don't invest time in raising their children, and then expect my child to tolerate being hurt.

 

GA Mom

 

[GeorgiaMom]

 

When a kids does something wrong I think you have a very limited time to correct the behaviour before they forget what they did. So if a scout makes a mistake it needs to be addressed ASAP. They need to know that there actions are not acceptable and that they need to be corrected

 

Love the way you handled this. Wish you were in charge of my son's pack and future troop.

 

GA Mom

 

[GeorgiaMom]

Just wait until you have to go into a scout wall tent at summer camp and break up a knife fight. The parents were called to come pick up their boys. Of course they were out of council people and from 2 Midwest states away. At least only one set of parents had to come, the boys were brothers.

 

As first adult on the scene, I only had to disarm them and break up the fight. Camp got the easy part.

 

Another boy was kicked out of a different camp I attended because he stole something from the trading post. They caught him rather quickly because there weren't that many Eagle scouts in attendance that week.

 

BSA helps develop the values of scouting within boys. They don't come that way! For some it's a 7 year process. Others, maybe not so long.

 

I don't know what the world would be like if I got a whole troop full of boys like GAMom's son. I don't think I'd like it. I prefer to watch the progression from young boys to young men.

 

Stosh

 

I hope you're kidding. If I were ever expected to break up a *knife fight* as a leader in any activity, with kids or adults, I would be calling the police to handle it, resigning, and taking my kids elsewhere. That is insane.

 

Hmm...I love teaching kids like my son and my daughter, and many of their friends. They listen, behave, and treat each other with respect.

 

I think the BSA has to start delivering what they advertise, or advertising what they deliver. Is it a character and skill development program where respect for leaders and other Scouts is expected, or is it an outdoorsy reform school?

 

I do expect a certain baseline of behavior before kids enter a program like this. I expect behavior like hitting and throwing things to be left behind in preschool. I would be embarrassed if my elementary school age child ever acted this way, much less a teenager.

 

I think we have a different definition of "young boy". The people you are describing are not "young boys", they are not able to function in polite society. I would be ashamed if my five year old couldn't refrain from violence and stealing. If you find fulfillment in taking kids at this very low level of behavior and trying to rehabilitate them, that's great. The world needs you.

 

I didn't sign up my son to be in a Lord of the Flies, reform school atmosphere. I am investing a lot of time and money to have him learn skills, teamwork, and character above and beyond the basic expectations we've taught him at home.

 

GA Mom

[Stosh]

The worst instance of bullying for my kids was when my daughter was six years old and in an evening church AWANA program. When I arrived to pick up my daughter, she was crying in the corner with a big red welt on her face. Her head had been slammed into a table by an older boy. As I entered the room, the same older boy shoved another little one across the room where he slid under a chair and hit his head hard on the seat. I interved to stop the older kid from hurting anyone else and tried to take care of my daughter at the same time. The older kid was totally out of control.

 

Not all negative behavior is bullying. If enough people miss-define the word, it will lose it's impact. I find no bully out of control. They know precisely what they are doing. When a child is out of control, they have more on their plate than just bullying.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

"I think the BSA has to start delivering what they advertise, or advertising what they deliver. Is it a character and skill development program where respect for leaders and other Scouts is expected, or is it an outdoorsy reform school?"

 

GA Mom: Sometimes it's both. It's very much up to the individual unit. Maybe your kids are really fantastic kids who never misbehave. I've never been part of a youth organization where every kid acts perfectly one hundred percent of the time. Baden Powell picked both prep school standouts, and inner city public school students for his original troop.

[qwazse]

I half-way agree with Stosh. Bullying always conjures a long-term, somewhat subtle, behavior in my mind. Probably because I think that's the kind of behavior the average scout can slip into if we don't encourage all of the boys to think first about everyone having fun and being cared for.

 

But I can easily see a kid with conduct disorder very quickly choosing "marks" who are less likely retaliate and attempting acts of sheer brutality. (Speed bullying?) A church-camp setting is just ripe for that kind of thing because Christian community in the American church is more of a thought experiment.

 

In scouting we usually get fair warning about those types because parents know them from school or sports.

 

I suspect some of BP's prep school kids posed as much trouble as boys from the hood. This might have been 2C's situation as well. Kids often fly under the radar until they are forced to reckon with "real world" tasks.

 

The good news is more often than not, when the task at hand is truly real, kids are stellar at supporting the weaker link.

[packsaddle]

I have to say that I would be honored to have GAMom's son in this unit. He has every prospect of growing into an outstanding young man, just as much as anyone else if people will give him the chance.

In this community, for the most part, the bullies at school stick with sports. I'm not going to lie and tell you I'm sorry for that...I'm glad they're not involved with the unit.

[fred johnson]

GeorgiaMom hit it on the head. "Silence is consent." Bad behavior needs to be addressed and clearly communicated that it is unacceptable. That's part of saying that the camp rules are the Scout Oath and Law. Parents send their kids on scouting events because it's about developing character and values. If I then heard my son was bullied, I'd be livid.

 

mattman578 also hit it on the head. "you have a very limited time to correct the behavior before they forget what they did." Discussions and corrections need to be done quickly so that it's associated to the bad behavior.

 

I've said this before. I do not believe in the statement "if any kid needs scouting that kid needs scouting." I'm okay if the leaders can control the collateral damage. But what I've seen is that one problem kid is poison and will drive five or more scouts away on their own. Plus in our troop, we need to be able to trust the boys to work in a positive way with each other. We won't be there every minute and we don't have the volunteers or the training to deal with behavior disorders.

 

Bullying is abuse and it's not acceptable. No kid is perfect and every kid experiments with the boundaries of bad behavior. But that's why we are there as leaders. We need to quickly nip it in the bud.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Sports have an advantage. The structure and control of sporting teams and events minimizes the opportunities for a bully. Take the field. Sit on the bench. Run sprints. Push ups. Learn your position. Stand here. Do that. etc etc etc.

 

Scouting has much more independence and less structure and oversight. Because of that, scouts must want to behave and work together ... and bullying behavior is more visible.

 

I'm not trying to start a sports versus scouting debate. It was raised earlier and I've thought about it.