Would you switch membership to the Girl Scouts?

[Rick_in_CA]

I suppose we kind of already knew the answer to the scenario suggested. What you describe AZMike seems a whole lot like the Baden-Powell Service Association- US to me. Their by-laws specifically state:

......

 

So, no, people wouldn't switch if the opportunity presented itself.

 

GSUSA is an organization with national presence, while the BPSA is a tiny organization (in the US at least) with little presence that few people had heard of (I only know of it because I read this forum - as far as I can tell, there isn't a single BPSA unit in California). So it is a mistake to point at the fact that people aren't switching to the BPSA as evidence that they wouldn't switch to an open GSUSA.

 

Of course, it isn't evidence that they would either.

[qwazse]

... an organization with national presence' date=' while the BPSA is a tiny organization (in the US at least) with little presence ... [/quote']

 

An that is why (until Trail Life, at least) pro- and anti- heterosexual exclusivity camps have vied for control over BSA's membership policy rather than built/promoted a youth movement with policy compatible with the views of their respective constituencies. If you grab the helm of the big ship, you might steer the entire thing in your direction. Even if some cargo gets tossed aside, it's still the biggest craft on the water. If you commandeer a small vessel, it might get you and yours where you want them to go, but at the end of the day, you might only get there with a dingy!

[GeorgiaMom]

 

An that is why (until Trail Life, at least) pro- and anti- heterosexual exclusivity camps have vied for control over BSA's membership policy rather than built/promoted a youth movement with policy compatible with the views of their respective constituencies. If you grab the helm of the big ship, you might steer the entire thing in your direction. Even if some cargo gets tossed aside, it's still the biggest craft on the water. If you commandeer a small vessel, it might get you and yours where you want them to go, but at the end of the day, you might only get there with a dingy!

 

Honestly, I would rather have my children involved in a smaller group, with involved parents, less bureaucracy, less paperwork, lower costs and more sanity. Whenever we've been involved with large groups and large churches, things get very bureaucratic and complicated, and more out of touch with the participants and their families.

 

I also find that when any group or church gets above a critical mass, volunteering drops way off because it's easy to drop and run. In smaller groups I find that all the parents know each other, so it's very obvious when a parent isn't taking on their share of the volunteer load.

 

Bigger isn't always better, especially when the group gets so big that they have salaried staff and executives. Then, they have monetary reasons to keep the group growing, some of which aren't in the best interests of the kids they are supposed to be serving.

 

GA Mom

[GeorgiaMom]

GAmom - Not sure what kind of "feminism" you WOULD want your daughter "involved" with.

 

I want my daughter to learn that men and women were designed by God to work as a team. I want her to learn that when parents choose to bring children into the world, both parents will be giving up a lot of their independence and personal goals in favor of family goals, and that's a trade off many find well worth it.

 

I hope she might enjoy being a wife and mom someday instead of seeing it as a limitation and a burden. Back to work...my husband has been teaching me PHP and MySql so I can take my book publishing business in a new direction that allows me to have a mentally stimulating activity away from the kids, earn some income again, and still plan my schedule around the kids' activities.

 

GA Mom

 

[GeorgiaMom]

 

Gee, I learn something new everyday. I had to Google that after reading GA Mom's comments. Had a little vomit in my mouth looking at the pictures. Must have missed the forum outrage at the time...

 

Yep, me too. According to this sculptor's site, a life size bronze statue costs between $35,000 and $75,000.

 

http://www.alancottrill.com/faqs.html

 

So, conservatively, the nine bronze larger than life statues of Wayne Perry, Bob Mazzuca, et al, must have cost a minimum of half a million. That really takes away my enthusiasm for selling popcorn door to door with my nine year old.

 

GA Mom

[GeorgiaMom]

@georgiamom' date=' you have many valid criticisms and need to do hat is best your family. A few points I would like to offer. BSA does not require a new uniform for your Webelos, he may continue to wear his blue one until Boy Scouts. In fact BSA National does not require a uniform period. Any requirement for a uniform or changing uniforms is being imposed by your local Pack, not the BSA. Talk to your unit leadership about the issue don't blame National. Secondly I do not enjoy the yearly FOS campaign and enjoy the the weekly Sunday campaign even less, so I don't show up for them either. Third, In my opinion FLL is an even bigger racket. We have the retail EV3 and I see great value in the program, but the price Lego charges for the Educational set is obscene. The time constraints between releasing the challenge and competition is just to tight in my opinion especially at the beginning of the school year. For those if us in less temperate climates than you that is prime outdoor time.[/quote']

 

Valid point. LEGO is ridiculously overpriced, and after we get our kids involved, I might be making the same complaint.

 

Thanks for the tip on uniforms. I'll check with our Pack. We were told to buy new uniforms for Webelos before August, with no option mentioned.

 

GA Mom

[walk in the woods]

An that is why (until Trail Life, at least) pro- and anti- heterosexual exclusivity camps have vied for control over BSA's membership policy rather than built/promoted a youth movement with policy compatible with the views of their respective constituencies. If you grab the helm of the big ship, you might steer the entire thing in your direction. Even if some cargo gets tossed aside, it's still the biggest craft on the water. If you commandeer a small vessel, it might get you and yours where you want them to go, but at the end of the day, you might only get there with a dingy!

 

It is an interesting moral dilemma; which is more important, principle or brand? BPSA, TL, the various church-based scout-like programs seem to have chosen the former, we seem to be wrasslin' over the latter. Mr. Gates seems to think it's possible we'll all fail. Curious times.

[boomerscout]

 

 

I will continue to offer better alternatives that are more educational, better value for money, and less invasive to our personal faith: 4-H, First Lego League, Science Olympiad, etc. The day he chooses to quit BSA because he wants to, I will quietly rejoice.

All these orgs also allow gays, amd some of them involve overnight trips to various competitions and meetings

 

[King Ding Dong]

All these orgs also allow gays' date=' amd some of them involve overnight trips to various competitions and meetings [/quote'] Atheists as well. Science is like that. The FLL Championships are held here in St. Louis in April. You should see the custom uniforms these teams wear. Don't look cheap to me. Know what downtown hotel room costs? More than a Scout uniform and a slew of campouts.

[perdidochas]

GA Mom,

 

I agree on your views that homosexual behavior is a sin, and shouldn't be encouraged. That said, I don't see how openly letting the 2 or 3 % of boys who are gay into Boy Scouts will lead to more homosexual behavior than making those same boys (if they want to be in Boy Scouts) be secretive about it. I just don't see that many openly Gay boys who will join BSA. We also don't let the older Scouts tent with the younger Scouts, even though we have no gay scouts. It's just not a compatible thing. (that and most of our older scouts tent by themselves, it's one of their privileges of rank). That said, I think the issue of gay scouts/leaders should have been left up to local units to decide, not a bunch of people in Texas.

 

BSA is a better all around group than all of those you mentioned, with the possible exception of 4-H. The men I know who are fellow Scout leaders are among the best men I know in terms of morals and overall character.

 

In terms of the uniform change up at Webelos--all that does is quicken the uniform change between cub scouts and webelos. My observation with my boys was that I bought them an over-sized shirt at Tiger Cub. They wore that until they were Webelos (at which time they had outgrown it), and then changed to the khaki shirt. Then about a year or two into Boy Scouts, they got their second Khaki, again due to growth. Also, if you think a BSA uniform is expensive, you must not have a baseball player or a football player.

 

In terms of GSA, my observation is that it varies a lot depending on the leader. My Sister-in-law is a GSA leader, and her girls camp (while not quite as intensely as the Troop my brother is an ASM in) fairly regularly. I'm sure they learn about the team aspect of marriage, etc.

[blw2]

back on the original topic.....

what we need is a good old fashioned corporate merger!

re-branded to "Scouts" or some such thing

[qwazse]

... My Sister-in-law is a GSA leader' date=' and her girls camp (while not quite as intensely as the Troop my brother is an ASM in) fairly regularly. ,,,[/quote']

 

This distinction is not trivial. We set a standard that boys should camp year 'round from age 11+ (preparing to overnight under canvas or less in all but the most hazardous conditions in their region). A GSUSA troop is just fine if they only camp occasionally in the most moderate of seasons and on the most hospitable grounds. No amount of "outoor education" will change that. There has to be an ethos that expects girls to step into those environments.

 

On the flip side, a merged ethos should expect boys to become better organizers. (My personal observation is that the GS in my crew are the better planners.)

 

If this mixed-group ethos led to youth with a clear vision of camping and hiking independently, I'd sign my kids up in an instant.

[Momleader]

GA Mom, you and other parents who don't want the FOS presentation at your B & G should let the pack leadership know. There is no rule that it must occur then. Suggest another time, most are done at award nights because that's when there are the most parents in the room feeling good about all that scouting has done with their kiddos

[ScoutNut]

 

I want my daughter to learn that men and women were designed by God to work as a team. I want her to learn that when parents choose to bring children into the world, both parents will be giving up a lot of their independence and personal goals in favor of family goals, and that's a trade off many find well worth it.

 

I hope she might enjoy being a wife and mom someday instead of seeing it as a limitation and a burden.

 

Interesting take on feminism in general, and how it should be "taught".

 

Your type of "feminism" is not something that I would want ANY private youth organization (except possibly our specific religious organization) teaching my daughter.

 

What your God wants, and a woman's "place" in a marriage, are things that I believe should be taught AT HOME. NOT at a Scout meeting.

 

Where did you get the idea that GSUSA taught girls not to work as a team with any man, and taught them that being a wife and mother was limiting, and a burden? None of the many, many, GSUSA leaders in our area, both men and women, that I knew ever taught their girls anything even remotely similar to those concepts.

 

My Lifetime Girl Scout daughter would like to get married some day - when she finds the right person. Loving the person you are married to is at the top of her marriage requirements. Next would be mutual respect. She would also love to be a mother. She, however is not "limiting" herself to only having children if/when she gets married. She has stated that she would be adopting children some day, if she was married or not.

 

She also works well with BOTH men, AND women, as a team, and is well respected in her chosen profession as both a leader, and a team player.

 

The girls in GSUSA Troops in my daughter's elementary, and high schools, grew into wonderful women. Many of whom are now happily married with children of their own!

 

Drat that evil GSUSA!

 

[GeorgiaMom]

Atheists as well. Science is like that. The FLL Championships are held here in St. Louis in April. You should see the custom uniforms these teams wear. Don't look cheap to me. Know what downtown hotel room costs? More than a Scout uniform and a slew of campouts.

 

Absolutely true. I'm not trying to keep my kids completely away from people who don't share our values. I'd have to lock them in the basement for that.

 

I don't want hothouse flowers who are kept in a little bubble with our church friends. We meet people, see movies, etc. with a lot that is good and some that is not right for us, and we talk about how to apply "spit and chew" in life. My kids are taught to never, ever, make a personal comment about anyone else, but to feel free to ask my husband and me absolutely anything in private later. I've seen some sad situations when sheltered little church kids go out in the world with no discernment and no preparation to deal with those not like themselves.

 

There is a major difference, though, between teaching my child and mentoring my child. Mentoring, which is what the BSA tries to offer, is more intimate and all encompassing. They are presenting the older Scouts and leaders as all around role models. I am very picky about who mentors my child at church and in life. The more influence an adult or older child has on my kids, the closer to our values and lifestyle they should be.

 

Teaching is different. My kid is there to learn a subject: art, programming, music, sports, whatever. My daughter's favorite art teacher is practically Wiccan in her extreme feminism and goddess worship. She is also an excellent art teacher, a very nice lady, and cares about my daughter. I discuss with my daughter what is and what isn't right for our family in this lady's lifestyle. A one hour art class is fine. I probably would not be comfortable with her as a Scout leader or Sunday School teacher for my child (not that this lady attends church) becasue that relationship is more influential.

 

The two concerns I have with Scouts are that 1. the leaders and the program present themselves as faith and values teachers, and 2. the encouragement for my young kids to sleep out in the woods alone with leaders and teenagers I may not know well. I have no such concerns when my kids are in drama class, science camp, FLL, Science Olympiad, etc.

 

I think BSA would be better off to lessen the emphasis on faith and values, and allow for the local option many have suggested. Instead of trying to enforce a uniform system of values and morals on everyone, maybe they should leave that to the chartering school or church. Then, I can choose to involve my kids in a CO where I know most of the leaders and kids well and I'm comfortable with the example they set for my child.

 

As to away trips for sports, science, Scouts, or whatever, I'm not sending my young teen anywhere alone with leaders and kids I don't know very, very well, whether it's to a hotel or the Scout campground. it's just not wise to place that level of trust in someone who isn't a close and trusted family friend.

 

Yes, KDD, I know what it costs to travel. I'm an author, and I've done many book tours nationwide. I never stay in the downtown hotel in the first place. Your point is well taken about the future costs we may run into in FLL and other STEM related leagues, and I will keep my eyes open. In my area Science Olympiad and 4-H might be less expensive options, or the robot builder's morning out meeting my husband goes to once a month now that our kids are a little older.

 

Thanks,

 

Ga Mom