King Ding Dong Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I'm completely missing the reference. I suspect it's not good' date=' so please explain.[/quote'] He simplified the rules into one sentence for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZMike Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 SS' date=' other than the oats I don't know much about Quackers other than a friend told me they don't have clergy. In a service they congregation just sits in a room and if someone has something to say the stand up and say it. Sounds a lot like this thread.[/quote'] Quackers or Quakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Quackers or Quakers?darn you auto-correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattR Posted May 24, 2014 Author Share Posted May 24, 2014 He simplified the rules into one sentence for you. ​Doh! Thanks for the obvious smack up side the head. I'm not sure what this has to do with playing nice but it does remind me of something. Last week I talked to a scout about a kid he has trouble with in school and we talked about how to deal with him. He mentioned ignoring the stupid stuff and I asked him if he ever spent time trying to create good times with this kid. i.e., don't just wait until something bad happens before interacting with someone but when things aren't bad try and make them better, so when the bad stuff happens it isn't so bad. ​Maybe playing nice requires more than just reacting to others in a nice way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Stosh, it's "Reform" Jews, not "Reformed." A tradition I am familiar with, as evidenced by the fact that I am sitting at a computer and typing on the Jewish Sabbath - not to mention that I am at work. By the way, in addition to Orthodox and Reform, there is a third major group, Conservative, and smaller groups such as Reconstructionist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 "​Maybe playing nice requires more than just reacting to others in a nice way." That's the idea. Being mindful of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 The only potential problem would be if several other threads were started each with different rule sets. First thing you know' date=' the moderators would practically have to have legal training, lol.[/quote'] Cough, cough. But seriously, the last thing we need here is a convoluted tangle of rules that requires a lawyer to sort them out. Especially if I am on the "enforcement team." I visit his forum during BREAKS from my job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Stosh' date=' it's "Reform" Jews, not "Reformed." A tradition I am familiar with, as evidenced by the fact that I am sitting at a computer and typing on the Jewish Sabbath - not to mention that I am at work. By the way, in addition to Orthodox and Reform, there is a third major group, Conservative, and smaller groups such as Reconstructionist.[/quote'] Sorry, but I think I got close enough so that I wouldn't offend too many. Thanks for the heads up! After all the Catholics and the Roman Catholics don't always play nice together any better than the Lutherans whether they be of the Norwegian or the German ilk. I was baptized Evangelical Reformed, grew up Methodist, ordained Lutheran, and now a marginal Lutheran at best. I have a tendency of not liking traditions that override the teachings of the religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 OK, as long as we're into 'true confessions', I was born and raised a Presbyterian. The congregation was socially stratified with the captains of industry at the top, followed by local store owners, office workers, and finally the skilled labor and hired help. This social order was something that everyone quietly observed, understood, and never spoke about. Strictly white and determined to stay that way. I admit that for years I tried hard but in the end, I sucked at being Presbyterian. I guess I realized I was not going to remain Presbyterian sometime during college. After that, I drifted through whatever various women wanted me to drift through. I sucked at romance too. But I often thought about those early days and the Presbyterians. I never understood them until the Star Wars second movie and realized that Darth Vader was Presbyterian. ...sucking air sound..."Luke, join with me, it is your DESTINY" Anyway, it helped me understand a lot things that had happened earlier in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiaMom Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 A great question, but one that isn’t easy to answer. Here are some issues to consider. - What is the scout actually doing when he leads an invocation (which by definition is a prayer)? Is he speaking for the group? Is he giving a demonstration of how his faith tradition does it? What are the expectations that are being set? Is “joining him in prayer†presented as optional or expected? ... - In some faiths, participating in an act of worship from another faith is a form of blasphemy (deep water alert), or is otherwise forbidden or discouraged. I believe there are Christian denominations that forbid their members from participating in interfaith activities (am I correct)? ... - Most people assume that prayer in other faiths is a lot like prayer in their own faith, just with a different “addresseeâ€Â. “If I lead a prayer, all I have to do is leave off any mention of Jesus, then it’s completely generic right?†- Is it possible to do a truly non-sectarian (not simply non-denominational Christian) prayer? I think the answer is no. So what is the alternative? Replace the invocation with a moment of silent contemplation? Perhaps a short poem? I like Dcsimmons idea of taking turns with different faiths and doing them right. It could be a great way to teach the scouts about how prayer fits into other faith traditions. Include a short discussion in addition to offering the prayer. Like anything, there are good and bad ways to do it. I haven’t seen it done in a scouting context, but I think it could be done well. This sounds like a very generous idea, but my own faith would not allow me to participate in the kind of worship service you are suggesting. I'm actually a little concerned about the new "interfaith service" requirement coming up for my Webelos under the new guidelines in 2015. Some of the templates I've seen are fine, but others would not be right for our family. In my opinion and according to my personal understanding of my faith, there is a world of difference between being respectful of other faiths and participating in them. I am a Protestant Christian. I can participate in prayers of any Christian denomination because we are all praying to the same God. We just have some different interpretations of other parts of the Bible. I can even participate if invited in a Jewish worship ceremony because, again we are praying to the same God. I cannot pray to Allah. I cannot participate in worship ceremonies of other faiths (Hindu, Buddist, etc) because in my faith, they are praying to false gods, and that is against the Commandments of my God. Yes, Rick, in my church participating in interfaith services would be blasphemy. Taking Islam as an example, I have Muslim friends. I respect them. I do my best to avoid offending their faith. I don't offer them alcohol or pork. I dress conservatively, as I would anyway. I don't try to shake a Muslim man's hand because I believe they are not allowed to touch women outside their families. I do my best to respect their faith and traditions. But I can't pray to Allah. That's crossing a very big bright red line in my faith. Please don't ask me to. There's a huge difference between tolerance and respect and active participation. I agree with another poster that the best way to respect all religions in a Pack or Troop is to make space for all members to pursue their own faith and prayers among themselves. I am not happy with the apparent move in the new handbooks to have kids participate in a one size fits all/all roads lead to God interfaith service. Not a good idea. Learning about other faiths is a great idea. I've done studies of comparative religions in my own church. I think it's great to understand Islam, Hinduism, etc., so I can avoid unnecessarily offending someone else. Their faith deserves as much respect from me as I hope mine would receive. For our family though, "taking turns with different faiths" is taking it one step too far. We can't do that. Honestly, I think faith is so personal that BSA should not go down this road at all. I think they should stick to camping, etc., and leave faith and worship to each child's own family to participate (or not) according to their own conscience. Ga Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I cannot pray to Allah. I cannot participate in worship ceremonies of other faiths (Hindu, Buddist, etc) because in my faith, they are praying to false gods, and that is against the Commandments of my God. Yes, Rick, in my church participating in interfaith services would be blasphemy. As Buddhists we don't pray to any god or gods. Buddhism is unique amongst the religions of the world because it does not have any place for God in its soteriology. Indeed most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions. But Buddhism goes beyond most of these other religions in that it is positively anti-theistic because the very notion of God conflicts with some principles which are fundamental to the Buddhist view of the world and the role of humans in it. However Buddhism is not atheistic in the sense that modern secularism, rationalism, humanism, etc. could be regarded to be atheistic (although it has much in common with them). Buddhism is not concerned primarily with refuting the notion of God. It is principally concerned with developing a method of transcending from the worldly ills. This involves undertaking a method of mental discipline and a code of conduct which is sufficient to satisfy the most demanding of spiritual requirements. Indeed only very little of the Buddha's voluminous discourses deal directly with the question of God. He was more interested in expounding a way to personal salvation, and to improve the weal of mankind both in this world and in the worlds to come. Consider also that Jesus was teaching a variation of Buddhism, not Judaism. As such, Buddhism dovetails very well with pre Pauline Christianity. I think faith is so personal that BSA should not go down this road at all. I think they should stick to camping, etc., and leave faith and worship to each child's own family to participate (or not) according to their own conscience. Ga Mom Agree - however, it seems BSA is intent on taking the program down this rabbit hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZMike Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 As Buddhists we don't pray to any god or gods. Buddhism is unique amongst the religions of the world because it does not have any place for God in its soteriology. No, it's not unique. Scientologists also describe themselves as a religion but do not believe in God. Laveyan Satanists would describe themselves the same way. Indeed most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions. But Buddhism goes beyond most of these other religions in that it is positively anti-theistic because the very notion of God conflicts with some principles which are fundamental to the Buddhist view of the world and the role of humans in it. However Buddhism is not atheistic in the sense that modern secularism, rationalism, humanism, etc. could be regarded to be atheistic (although it has much in common with them). Buddhism is not concerned primarily with refuting the notion of God. It is principally concerned with developing a method of transcending from the worldly ills. This involves undertaking a method of mental discipline and a code of conduct which is sufficient to satisfy the most demanding of spiritual requirements. Indeed only very little of the Buddha's voluminous discourses deal directly with the question of God. He was more interested in expounding a way to personal salvation, and to improve the weal of mankind both in this world and in the worlds to come. Some (not all) Buddhists would describe themselves as atheists, in that they do not believe in God; they could not describe themselves as materialist atheists, as they believe in non-material spiritual forces, and a transcendent higher power. It's skirting the edges of a western understanding of what "religion" is, but it's not atheist in the way the "New Atheist" movement tends to describe itself. Consider also that Jesus was teaching a variation of Buddhism, not Judaism. As such, Buddhism dovetails very well with pre Pauline Christianity. That's theological and historical nonsense, Le Voyageur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le Voyageur Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Theological and historical nonsense ??? Well, the clues are in plain sight.....some being more obvious then other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Time to play a little catch up. Not Quackers..... Quakers, as in "quaking before the word of the Lord." (yes there is a story behind that). Aside: The Quaker Oats company was started by Friends (our official name, as in" Religious society of...." see John 15:14-15 ) but the company passed out of Quaker ken long ago. They wouldn't even help our Jamboree Display. Yes, a traditional Friends Meeting is without professional clergy. We meet together, in silence, waiting on the Spirit to inspire a message. If someone is moved to speak, they stand and give that message. We might sit in silence for an hour, we might have a dozen messages. There was a theological split back in the 1820s, and you will see "Friends Church" along the road, they have a paid pastor. Weall share the same history and founder (George Fox), but a "Friends Meeting" usually has no pastor, but there are exceptions. Have I confusticated things sufficiently for you? Like every "recognized" faith in the BSA, we have a Committee that is the liaison of our faith with the various Scouting organizations (GSUSA,BSA, Scouts Canada, Campfire, etc. ) You may visit us at http://quakerscouting.org/fcs-wp/ . And, there is the Friends World Committee for Consultation www.fwccamericas.org which tries to tie together the various permutations of Friends around the world . As in many things theological, it is best to find a local Meeting/Church and , as Paul said, "come and see". PM me and I will do my best to explain . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 "I think faith is so personal that BSA should not go down this road at all. I think they should stick to camping, etc., and leave faith and worship to each child's own family to participate (or not) according to their own conscience." I agree. Thanks for explaining your feelings on this. le Voyageur, thank you for that description of Buddhism. I think the comment about BSA violated #1. I think AZMike's reaction violated #3. ​I urge everyone to take a deep breath and re-read the OP and the special decorum rules for this thread. Edit: I'm trying to maintain a sense of humor. Please help me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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