Thought Experiment: Atheists are openly allowed.

[Rick_in_CA]

"To do my duty to God and my country"

 

I think that second part is overlooked. We all have the First Amendment right of freedom of religion. Maybe if we move away from "we are a private organization and can do what we want" mindset and think about our duty to respect the constitutional rights of others,,,be more in step with current American values and laws.

 

My $0.02

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this! The BSA was created to be the American version of scouting, reflecting American values. It's why William D. Boyce directed that the BSA "was open to all boys, regardless of race or creed". We live in a country that claims to be open to all, regardless of race, religious faith, national origin, etc. The BSA should be too.

[Eagledad]

I also will say that I think that the post by Eagledad (which prompted Merlyn's post that now has a redaction in it) crossed the line into insulting the beliefs of others... and beliefs do include lack of belief' date=' non-belief and every other way of thinking. It just didn't contain any words that rang the bell.[/quote']

 

OK, I accept that. But I would like to explain.

 

My response was in the respect of the subject at the point in the discussion. I thought a serious discussion of atheist chaplains as silly and still think it as silly. I never intended or expected any of my words to be insulting because Merlyn is every bit the proud atheist. As I said with Merlyn, I think 9 out of 10 people asked to give a definition of Atheist or chaplains will agree with me and describe Atheist as non-believer and chaplains spiritual representatives. In my opinion any attempt to bring equivalence of an Atheist Chaplain with a religious Chaplain is nothing more than activism trying to marginalize religion.

 

It’s not like I live in a vacuum ignorant of Atheism, many relatives including my dad are lifelong members as well as many of my friends and bosses. Many of the families in my scouting units have Atheist parents and we work well together. I have total respect for Atheist in our Armed Forces and expect that they have the same needs as everyone else. But while they have the same needs, I would not expect them to want a spiritual leader (chaplain) to provide many of those needs. That makes sense doesn't it. If they need a mentor or counselor, then by golly they need seek an atheist mentor or counselor. If for whatever reason an atheist requests a spiritual mentor or counselor (chaplain), then provide them one. But to call a non-spiritual representative a Chaplain, is I think a purposeful denigration of Chaplain. Yes, I think it is a pop culture attack to marginalize religious morality and suggest it equal to the morality of a non-believer.

 

I absolutely intended no disrespect to Merlyn or atheist and would have actually expected the opposite response if I were talking to him. I didn’t even see his response until after I sent my post. Still, his reaction was unexpected. I admit the words may at best have been a little insensitive but I was using sarcasm as satire for the subject of an atheist spiritual leader. I was not trying to be personally insulting, it’s not my style. A little too pragmatic maybe, which comes off cold sometimes.

 

On a side note, I have never seen Merlyn react emotionally that way before. I actually was more startled by being called a liar. I even feel guilty that I enjoyed his response because he is usually controlled and loss of control is rare for him. What could I have possibly lied about? He is not the first atheist on this forum to lose control and react emotionally like that to me. There is something weird about that whole thing.

 

Anyway I give my apologies to those who were offended by post.

 

Barry

 

[SSScout]

I believe (there's that word again) we need a "Faith and Chaplaincy" forum.

 

That said, as a Jamboree Scout Chaplain, I have had dealings(conversations? discussions? ) with Scouts that have told me , quote, "I'm not really into that God stuff". Mostly I listen and if it seems appropriate, I ask them about that, I try to draw them out about their faith (or lack of) . I see the lack of as a form of faith. It is a "belief" in "nothing. It does get interesting.

I have a daughter who is an avowed atheist. She recently wrote me a letter (remember them?) and in it mentioned a friend who had recently died. She and her husband went to the funeral, which she said was "really beautiful" until the end, when it "got a little too religious". Oh well.

Scoutson reads the bible and takes long walks in the woods. The two stepsons are not quite sure....

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Eagledad, I quoted the lie you wrote:

"Qwazse, athiest have NO doubt because they believe there is NO god."

 

Atheists are people who lack a belief in god; this does not imply any particular degree of certainty, nor does it require them to believe there is no god (a person totally unfamiliar with the concept of gods would necessarily lack a belief, but they likewise could not hold the opinion that "there is no god" for the same reason).

 

 

[Rick_in_CA]

My response was in the respect of the subject at the point in the discussion. I thought a serious discussion of atheist chaplains as silly and still think it as silly. I never intended or expected any of my words to be insulting because Merlyn is every bit the proud atheist. As I said with Merlyn, I think 9 out of 10 people asked to give a definition of Atheist or chaplains will agree with me and describe Atheist as non-believer and chaplains spiritual representatives. In my opinion any attempt to bring equivalence of an Atheist Chaplain with a religious Chaplain is nothing more than activism trying to marginalize religion.

 

So you didn't intend or expect your words to be insulting? Well they were, and not just to Merlyn.

 

You are correct that most people (you are probably right about the 90% bit) don't really know what the word "atheist" means. They think it means "anti-religious", which is true for some atheists, but not all (many are deeply spiritual people. Some are even ordained ministers). You then base your arguments on the idea that atheists are all anti-religious without any spiritual beliefs; and appear to ignore Merlyn and others when they try to explain that: an atheist is simply a non-theist. That can result in unintended (and intended) insult. For example, if I point too a Buddhist monk and explain that he is a deeply spiritual man, that also happens to be an atheist (hey, I think I'm pointing to a straw monk ), and you say "he isn't a real atheist because all atheists denigrate religion". One of the things you are doing is insulting many people who self-identify as atheists by implying that they must denigrate religion. Including that Buddhist monk.

 

And when you say things like "the idea of atheist chaplains is silly", you are insulting those of faiths where atheist ministers and the like are found. You are basically calling their faith "silly". Even if that isn't what you intended. See how that can be hurtful and insulting?

 

I'm not an atheist, but I am Unitarian, and there are atheists of various flavors in my faith tradition (along with Christians, Wiccans, agnostics, etc.). A few of them are even UUA ordained ministers. I do not consider them inherently "silly". However, it is completely fine if you read that and think "The Unitarians have atheist ministers? That doesn't make any sense to me. I just don't get it." It isn't your faith tradition, you don't have to get it or agree with it (there are lots of things in this world that I don't get or agree with). But please don't denigrate my faith or call it silly.

 

A Scout is Friendly.

A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.

 

A Scout is Reverent.

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

[MattR]

I just came back from our COH and the scouts decided to do an opening prayer on their own rather than have a minister from the church. The scout asked everyone to bow their heads and he gave a muddled prayer that he didn't think about and then ended with something about Jesus. After the meeting I came up to him and congratulated him on the rest of the COH and then I talked to him about the prayer and how not everyone bows or follows Christianity. He was extremely sorry and I told him no, this was a learning opportunity and I told him how I do things differently. I also told him about practicing before hand. He learned something. I got to teach him something new. We still respect each other. Everyone wins.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if the adults could handle these things the same way? I agree with SSScout, a forum to help each of us learn what Reverent means to others, in a friendly, cooperative way, would be a 100 times more productive than what we have now. Maybe that's a thread; how to talk about these issues in a cooperative way.

[packsaddle]

This one went off the rails quickly so here's a quick attempt to get back to the original post: what if?

If people stopped trying to judge the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others I suspect this would not be an issue at all. Every single one of us could have our personal beliefs without any requirement to 'witness' or to state them openly or have them 'approved' by anyone else. Seems simple enough to me.

If someone signs the membership form, that's that. There is nothing in our training that says we have to 'police' the thoughts or beliefs of others.

[Sentinel947]

I never responded to the OP. I look forward to a time where our openly non believing brothers can be Boy Scouts. I think society has evolved since BP created Scouting. I think in a compromise Reverance can stay in the Law. The BSAs definition of it is fair and it should stay. I think duty to God should be removed. Those of us who believe in a God know what our responsibilities to him are. It doesn't need to be in the Oath. I want to see optional religious study stay in the program even if atheists join. I do think it's a excellent way to help religious Scouts study their faith, just as it helped me rediscover Catholicism years ago.

[SSScout]

We keep creating ad hoc "Faith and Chaplaincy" threads.

In my role as a Scout Chaplain, I have led discussions (IOLS, District Roundtable) on a Scout's faith or lack thereof. I have led discussions about "Scout's Own " religious services ( thank you Matt R) . The ability of folks to take great umbrage at some other's unwarranted assumptions always makes me shake my head and marvel.

In the mean time, let us pray for the young girls in Nigeria and their kidnappers.

I have to go to work now, but we will continue this later, no doubt......

[walk in the woods]

Congratulations MattR, you made a boy feel ashamed about expressing his religious beliefs in public. Well done.

[Horizon]

Just read an article that reported that atheists want their own Chaplains in the military. I'm so confused. When the Chaplain "ministers" to their spiritual needs' date=' just exactly what would he/she do?[/quote']

 

That is due to the privacy a chaplain provides for counseling. If a soldier sees a therapist, it goes on their military record. If a soldier talks to their Chaplain, they can speak knowing that they won't be called in for a review based on their comments.

 

I have always wondered about how to reconcile Duty to God and my country - when Duty to God might conflict with Duty to Country.

 

 

[packsaddle]

" I agree with SSScout, a forum to help each of us learn what Reverent means to others, in a friendly, cooperative way, would be a 100 times more productive than what we have now."

MattR, and SSScout, I am ok with starting a new forum. I just don't have that ability. OTOH, do you really think that the same people who are in these forums are going to do the above just because the forum has a different label? Really? We have the option open right now to do what you described above here in this forum. We haven't. Do you think it will be any different in another forum?

[skeptic]

Likely would not go anywhere, as it would very soon get taken over by argumentative individuals who simply do not want to discuss anything, but only agitate. That seems to be what generally happens with any of these threads. Then, I might be pleasantly surprised; nah!

[MattR]

Pack, with Moderator status it could be controlled. To remove the fighting there needs to be some common ground and some ground rules.

 

The real problem is that mixing Reverent with politics or law is a sure recipe for disaster. With the current format, there will always be a fight. While politics and religion do have an ugly intersection there is something quite beautiful that can be found where the politics is removed. Some people get there by praying daily and some get there by quietly sitting on a rock in the woods. My job as SM is to encourage each boy to find his own path.

 

What would help me would be a discussion about the 12th point with no mention of law or politics. I know, we can't even decide what the 12th point means, but let's keep it vague and just say it has to do with training the right side of our brains to be selfless. For some that means God, or Buddha, or just hiking up the North side of the Grand Canyon at sunrise. As long as someone accepts that there are different ways to get there, we can have a great discussion.

[Rick_in_CA]

Congratulations MattR' date=' you made a boy feel ashamed about expressing his religious beliefs in public. Well done.[/quote']

 

Huh? I assume you are referring to this:

 

I just came back from our COH and the scouts decided to do an opening prayer on their own rather than have a minister from the church. The scout asked everyone to bow their heads and he gave a muddled prayer that he didn't think about and then ended with something about Jesus. After the meeting I came up to him and congratulated him on the rest of the COH and then I talked to him about the prayer and how not everyone bows or follows Christianity. He was extremely sorry and I told him no' date=' this was a learning opportunity and I told him how I do things differently. I also told him about practicing before hand. He learned something. I got to teach him something new. We still respect each other. Everyone wins.[/quote']

 

How is any of this making a boy "feel ashamed about expressing his religious beliefs in public"?