Thought Experiment: Atheists are openly allowed.

[duckfoot]

How do we go about integrating them into the Oath and Law without taking away from what's there already?

[SM bob]

1st - Luckily no one cares about Atheists. We can exclude them without bad press. 2nd - The oath and law were intended to give a framework of social values. To instill a sense of being an active member of the community. In Baden Powell's time one could not contemplate an atheist. Being an atheist is similar to not believing in the pope in the 15th century. Times change. I believe you could be an excellent scout or scouter without believing in god. 3rd - The law and oath are different depending on the country. Change can be painful, but it's not always a bad thing.

[Scouter99]

You can't. It is the position of the BSA that belief in a higher power is part and parcel with being the kind of man we aim to produce. To admit atheists, we must change that belief, or resign ourselves to advancing substandard scouts and bestowing Eagle upon substandard young men.

 

The BSA is an ideological movement--certain ideals are at the heart of what we do, and they guide why we do what we do.

Not every movement is for everyone. I am not a Methodist, I do not share theology with Methodists, I don't go to the Methodist church. I am not a veteran, I am not interested in joining the VFW. I am not a Republican, I am not going to the Republican convention and demand they change the platform to fit my beliefs. I am not an atheist, I do not share ideology with atheists, I am not going to beat in the door of the local atheist club.

And it is my great hope that no Knights of Columbus are sitting around flipping channels thinking "hmmm, how can I alter the nature of the KoC's to the least common denominator so everyone can join."

Nor do I sit around flipping channels thinking to myself "grr, what a bunch of so-n-sos those Knights of Columus are, with their friggin cheap beer and their friggin Catholics-only"

 

Not every organization is for every person--that's not intolerance, it's not hate, it's not prejudice, it's not fear, it's not irrational. It's human evolution and philosophical life.

 

3rd - The law and oath are different depending on the country.

They are, and they virtually all include God. Of the various Scout oath translations collected at USSP, the only country whose oath doesn't include God is Israel http://usscouts.org/internationaloaths.asp

 

This is probably the case because WOSM requires it for membership:

"Article II, paragraph 2: 'Adherence to a Promise and Law'

All members of the Scout Movement are required to adhere to a Scout Promise and Law reflecting, in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization and approved by the World Organization, the principles of Duty to God, Duty to others and Duty to self, and inspired by the Promise and Law conceived by the Founder of the Scout Movement in the following terms: The Scout Promise

'On my honour I promise that I will do my bestâ€â€

To do my duty to God and the King (or to God and my Country)

To help other people at all times and

To obey the Scout Law.'"

 

I actually find it quite amusing that the people who most want to change BSA usually don't realize that the BSA is already the most inclusive scouting organization in the world. Go to Wikipedia, and look up "Scouting in [X country]" Peru, England, France, Russia, first world, third world--whichever, wherever. You will find that almost all of them have multiple Scouting associations based along ethnic and religious lines. The BSA is more open and tolerant than scouting associations anywhere in the world.

[Fehler]

From: "A Scout is reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."

 

To: "A Scout is reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God or his spiritual beliefs, whatever form they take. He is faithful in his religious or spiritual duties. He respects the beliefs or non-beliefs of others."

[qwazse]

"... his spiritual beliefs ..."

 

I think it is insulting to some athiests to suggest their opinion about the lack of existence of spirituality constitutes a spiritual belief.

 

I might use it in an apologetic or debate, but it is just plain rude to insist someone give ascent to something beyond mind and body when they are convinced it doesn't exist.

[Papadaddy]

Just read an article that reported that atheists want their own Chaplains in the military. I'm so confused. When the Chaplain "ministers" to their spiritual needs, just exactly what would he/she do?

[Peregrinator]

In Baden Powell's time one could not contemplate an atheist.

Baden-Powell contemplated them, and wrote against them in Rovering to Success.

 

THERE are a good many men who have no religion, who don't believe in God; they are known as atheists.

 

In Great Britain alone there are nine societies of these. They are welcome to have their own opinions in this line, but when they try, as they are always doing, to force these ideas on other people, they become enemies of the worst sort.

 

Some of these societies directly attack the religious belief of others in a very offensive way, but I believe that by doing so they are, as a matter of fact, doing more good than harm to the religions concerned, since it makes people buck up and sink their own differences in order to combine together to repel these attacks.

 

Here is a specimen of the gratuitous kind of insult which they offer to the Christian religion. It is one among others which have been quoted in the public press during the last few years.

 

"The chief religious ceremony of Christians, known as the Mass, or Communion, which consists of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of this Jew called Jesus, is a disgusting and degrading superstition, and suggestive of a cannibal feast, which in all probability was its origin.

 

"Christianity has lowered and perverted the standard of truth in every direction. It is not too much to say that it has debauched the world with falsehood."

 

This to every Christian who believes in his religion is an indecent insult. At the same time it is a direct call to him to action. But I am not going into that here.

 

[Peregrinator]

Just read an article that reported that atheists want their own Chaplains in the military. I'm so confused. When the Chaplain "ministers" to their spiritual needs' date=' just exactly what would he/she do?[/quote']

 

Well when a soldier gets into his head that he might die and therefore seeks some religious comfort, the atheist chaplain can remind him that the only thing that awaits him is nonexistence.

[Sentinel947]

At my discretion, this topic has been moved to issues and politics as it relates to the membership policy debate. Duck foot, if you do not agree with the move, pm me. Good night ladies and gentlemen.

[SM bob]

Atheist and fundamentalist Christians have the most extreme views. They are also blinded by those views. The people pushing for gay rights just want gay rights. Most do not want to go out camping. Most do not give their free time mentoring young boys and girls (scouts and ventures) about self reliance or being prepared. The fundamentalist Christians push there beliefs on scouts beyond what Baden Powell would have wanted. Powell wanted scouts to feel the power of nature and question existence. To realize that nature is a gift. And maybe see a higher being behind it all. It's sad that both camps can't pick a different battleground. BSA is trying to be inclusive while holding to its traditions. If both groups would leave BSA alone it would slowly change with the times.

[SM bob]

Peregrenator. I agree with you that Baden-Powell knew of atheist, but what I meant was that most people of his time could not understand them. Atheist were more fringe.

[AZMike]

If you change the oath a scout makes, I think Scouts that make the rank of Eagle afterwards would have an asterisk attached to their achievement in the eyes of many. American scouting wouldn't be the same, and it would result in massive resignations to no positive gain.

[AZMike]

 

Well when a soldier gets into his head that he might die and therefore seeks some religious comfort, the atheist chaplain can remind him that the only thing that awaits him is nonexistence.

 

"Well, son, you probably shouldn't have been so attached to your buddy, there. You and he are basically just a bag of fulminating chemicals, and the illusion of free will you experience is really just an epiphenomenon of the brute collision of atoms and chemical reactions going on in your bodies, so neither his nor your actions mattered. There's no objective standard of morality, it's all culturally and societally based, so there's no real difference between us and the enemy over there, and the atrocities the other side are inflicting on the civilian population are not any different from our actions, from a materialist perspective. The genocide was really more of an aesthetic choice, and probably was pre-determined through natural selection, so how could it be said to be "wrong"? And now that your comrade is dead, you can be assured that his consciousness ceased to exist when his brain stopped functioning, as will yours and mine, and that neither you nor he will ever see their loved ones again. There, there. Stop weeping. Here's a complimentary pocket edition of Dawkins to comfort you."

[Cambridgeskip]

This is probably the case because WOSM requires it for membership:

 

I'll have to pick you up on that, no it doesn't. France, Netherlands and The Czech Republic have always had an atheist version of the promise. Although WOSM stated in 1932 that no further exceptions would be made they made one just last year and just last year approved a new one for the UK. All versions of it here. http://members.scouts.org.uk/factsheets/FS322016.pdf Dutch Promise here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_Nederland

 

Also about countries with multiple organisations, again while it may be the case in some countries it is NOT the case in the UK. There is the UK Scout Association which admits members of all faiths and those of none (and at youth level has always done so, despite until this year needing to make a religious promise there was no actual requirement for youth members to have a belief in a higher being) and that is it other than non WOSM break away groups, just like there are in the USA.

 

In most countries where different organisations exist there is normally an umbrella organisation which unifies them all and they typically cooperate. Germany is the best example of this.

[RememberSchiff]

"To do my duty to God and my country"

 

I think that second part is overlooked. We all have the First Amendment right of freedom of religion. Maybe if we move away from "we are a private organization and can do what we want" mindset and think about our duty to respect the constitutional rights of others,,,be more in step with current American values and laws.

 

My $0.02