CNYScouter Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 The Pack I am in hosts a fall Cub Scout sleep over event every year This event was started by another pack 6 or 7 years ago because our District offered very little Cub programing. When the living history museum where this was held closed we offered to take it over. We’ve grown this event into something that last year drew over 1000 people from every district in our council. Our council owns a trailer that was converted into a portable BB Gun range. This trailer has been at this event every year since the beginning. This year we have been told that the trailer is not available. So we are looking at putting up a temporary range ourselves. We have people with the required training to run this and the room to safely have a shooting range Our council shooting sports committee is now telling us that we can’t have shooting sports because it’s not a district/council event. Up to this point the only involvement from our District/Council has been that they brought the BB Gun trailer Our council issues insurance for this event and even helped us get additional insurance from national to meet the insurance requirements for where the event is held. So, what makes an event a District/Council run event? No one can seem to tell or show me documentation what makes an event a District/Council run event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I suspect there's no written "rule" about things like this, so that the District/Council has as much flexibility to control events as possible. I would suggest that any reasonable person would conclude that an event insured by the Council is a Council event. If I were in your shoes, that's what I would hang my hat on, knowing they might pull your insurance coverage in response. To go a bit beyond the immediate, but I think not off topic: I am a hater of Scouting bureaucracy, particularly Scouting bureaucracy that prevents kids from having fun and enjoying the program. Membership/Leadership standards aside, this is the one thing that keeps kids out of Scouting, or makes them leave Scouting. Council and District Leadership are incredibly short-sighted in this regard, and it is one of the things that causes our volunteer base to mistrust them so frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 FAQ for shooting sports at each program level of scouting: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/ShootingSports/shooting_faq.aspx "For any questions regarding these documents, please call or email Curt.Palmer@Scouting.org" Frankly, nothing has changed between last year and this year, the same people are doing the organizing and planning, the same people are coming, the same activity will be offered. It doesn't sound like it was ever a district/council activity, so you never should have been allowed to offer BB gun shooting in the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 More than one unit. Your event has been a district/council event all along. The only issue is that it is unaccredited, which is fairly common. Our council ran official district camporees for years which were unaccredited. The only down side is the council can't count the 1000 nights camping toward their program totals. (Which usually results in a sarcastic "woop-dee-doo" from most involved.) If the council doesn't care, I wouldn't sweat actual accreditation too much. However, from a liability and peace of mind standpoint, someone who understands the process should be looking at your facilities and program and comparing them to the national camp standards for Cub family camping. If you DE and council camping committee isn't interested (or if you simply don't want to poke that bear) ask the folks who run your Cub Scout day camp. They are required to go through National Camp School and train on the camp standards. At minimum, it's a conversation worth having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blw2 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 My thought is this.... If the district is telling you that you can't offer bb shooting this year, don't offer it. But, I would send out notice to all packs in the council right now, and bring it up at Round Tables, and make sure every Round Table Chair Person is aware. Just a short and sweet thing. Attention: BB shooting will not be available at the next XYZ weekend. Council has determined that it's not allowed since it's not a council event. Please call your DE for further information. I'll bet every pack that has an interest in attending will get on the horn to their DE's and to Council..... and this stupid ruling will get changed pronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Sorry, it only walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It's not insured like a duck. Call your DE. This sounds like a great service you all are providing to your district. Hope you can keep it flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNYScouter Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I just found out that the reason we can’t get the BB Gun trailer is that the council is doing a similar event on the same weekend as our event and it will be there Our event was also talked about in the program for our corporate fundraising dinner So I guess it’s OK to use this as a council event to solicit donations from corporate sponsors but not when the council has a competing event going. The person who is giving us a hard time is the new council shooting sports committee chair. As of Jan. 1 all ranges have to be approved by them and the SE. Last year the DE’s were told that they could not assist us because we are doing this on our own. This event is insured. Not only do we have liability insurance from our council but additional insurance through BSA National to meet the insurance requirements for where this is being held The reason I asked what defines a District run event is that all of us on the event organizing committee are registered on the District level in some capacity across multiple Districts and all of us are on various council committees. Helping out at this event is the Council Training chair, the Council Membership chair, A couple of District Membership chairs, A District Activities chair and other who I know are registered at a District level but I am not sure in what position. What this really comes down to is $$$$$. When this event was small nobody wanted anything to do with it. Now we have grown this to a major event we are getting all the flack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why the competing events? Especially if they are similar, and Cub level? Was there not enough notice to all involved of the prospective dates for each event? Is it possible to combine events? Or move one to a different date? Is your event a fundraiser for your Pack (or any of the Packs involved)? How about an archery course instead? I would have a talk with your Council SE to see what can be worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Since you have more than one pack attending, it's a council event, even if two packs are from the same district. That is national's definition of a cub scout council event per the national standards, or whatever they are calling them now. I would have those on the planning staff talk to their DEs and possibly the SE. Hopefully they are not in the school of thought that "Cubs don't need to camp." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNYScouter Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 Thanks for all the great answers and suggestions Why the competing events? Especially if they are similar, and Cub level? We found out about the competing event “thru the grapevineâ€Â. It was confirmed by the council Shooting Sports Chair when I asked about theBB Gun trailer and having shooting at our event this year . Was there not enough notice to all involved of the prospective dates for each event? I can only answer for our event. We put out flyers with this year’s event dates on it the Monday after our event last year Is it possible to combine events? Or move one to a different date? We have tried to contact the other events organizer but so far we have gotten no response. Is your event a fundraiser for your Pack (or any of the Packs involved)? Are we doing this to make money? No. Are we in the black? Yes. We put money aside from last year’s event to pay for items like patches and other program expenses We gave money to the council for use of the BB Gun Trailer and money to be used as camperships to one of the districts on our organizing committee. How about an archery course instead? We have the same issue as BB Guns. New, as of Jan. 1, all ranges on private property need to approved by a council approved RSO and the SE. (and of course there is a new form that needs to be filled out and signed). Up until last year we were working with a DE. Before last year’s event the DE was told by council “management†that they could no longer help us in any way because Cubs are attending this event and not the council event at one of our camps two weeks after. I took my son to this event when he was a Tiger. It wasn’t very well run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scouter99 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Several people, as usual in Scouting, referring to a rule/definition and tossing in the word "National" for gravitas, but with no link or quote. In regards to Scouters and "rules," I'm an adopted Missourian: Show me. It may well be the case that wherever two units are, it becomes a Council event, but I personally find that hard to believe--that makes our troop open house a council event, and as follows we could offer shooting sports. Doesn't pass the smell test. Nor do I think your dual registration matters. I'm also registered in a district-level position. That doesn't make what I'm doing on my own or within my troop a district action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blancmange Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 More than one unit. Your event has been a district/council event all along. I would disagree with this as a general rule. Our troop is fairly small. So is one from a neighboring town. 2 or 3 times per year we will go camping, hiking or some other activity with them. I can't imagine anyone considering those district or council activities. On the other hand, if several folks on a district committee work together to put on an event, that is sounding more and more like a district event. Is it not a district event simply because the DE says so? Is our organization volunteer run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankpalazzi Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 There's nothin' in the Big BSA Book O' Rules that says an independently organized activity with 2+ troops/packs is a district/council activity. So why would a DE say that? A District Executive has two main concerns: Membership. Money. So, why not go for a piece of the action? Ask the DE to produce that "rule" in Black & White. He can't, because it isn't there! Keep doing what you're doing, and have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Blanc, It's not "units" but "packs" 2 or more packs get together. Frank, page 9 of this document states. And let's remember, districts are part of the council, so if district committees are involved, that's council support. "Family camp is a council-organized overnight or longer event for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) and their families that involves more than one pack where the council provides the staffing and program. These events are often referred to as parent/pal, mom and me, or adventure weekends. Family camps for Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, or Sea Scouts may also be accredited upon application of the council." Here's the link. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/ou...df/430-056.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNYScouter Posted May 27, 2014 Author Share Posted May 27, 2014 I have been in email contact with the new chair of our councils shooting sports committee. He doesn't consider our event a District/Council event so he won't approve a range. I just found out that it's another district holding the event opposite ours and it is the district where the new chair is from hmmmm...I wonder if that has anything to do with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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