Adult Conflicts/Drama

[dfscott]

I've got a difficult situation that I'm trying to resolve (I'm the SM). The COR and CC are not sure what the best course of action is either. This is long, so I apologize in advance.

We are a relatively new troop - going on our 3rd year, just added 8 Webs last week from our feeder Pack to bring our numbers up to 22. Much of our adult leaders and Troop Committee have come from the feeder, so they tend to have a "Cub Scout" mentality that I'm working to break them from.

Our last campout was the first one for some new scouts that just crossed over -- we had three new scouts camping with three of our experienced scouts. As often happens with new scouts, one of them (let's call him "H") was very lazy and didn't want to do anything. "H" just complained about everything, refused to pitch in, and drove the other scouts crazy. My experience with scouts like this is that the boys often fix this themselves -- either they let him know they won't put up with and he realizes that he needs to pull his weight, or he goes home crying that everyone is mean to him and eventually drops.

Unfortunately, my ASM is still having trouble with youth-led and tends to stick his nose in like a drill sergeant when things go bad. I usually reel him in, but it irks him and he sometimes barks at the boys. He has known this particular scout for a while (he was in the same den as the ASMs son), so there is some history here.

So, Sunday morning rolls around and we're packing up in the rain. H's dad (who is a Troop Committee member) shows up (he wasn't camping, but was helping with transportation). He walks into the adult campsite and my ASM and he get into it. They are always sniping at each other (they have a history -- they were co-Den leaders in the pack and are both hotheads, and they just don't like each other). The details are unimportant, but I eventually talked them down. The SPL was there, but no other scouts. However, the Committee member was smoldering at that point.

A few minutes later, we're packing up in the parking lot. The ASM and the Committee member start talking about 20 feet away from where I am with the boys at the trailer. I realize that it's getting heated, but I'm hoping that cooler heads will prevail and try to distract the boys with packing. Suddenly voices are raised and the boys start looking over there and I realize it's not stopping. By the time I get over there, it's feeling like it's going to get physical. I stand between them, trying to break it up, telling them that they can't do this in front of the boys. However, they ignore me, and keep yelling threats at each other, such as "I'll get you kicked out" and "I'm going to the council to report this", etc. After 2-3 minutes, I finally get them apart. The Committee member loaded in his scouts and left, and we continued packing and left.

The COR (who is also my wife) has has called a meeting tomorrow night to discuss this issue and what to do about it. She has requested that the Committee Chair, myself, and the two adults involved attend. However, the Committee member has refused to attend.

So, at this point, we are trying to determine what to do. The "easy" fix is to remove both adults from all direct contact with the scouts. However, this ASM is the only one who will reliably camp. If he leaves, it's likely that we will have to greatly cut back on our outings. A few weeks back he got called into work over the weekend -- I begged for someone else to step in, but no one stepped up. We ended up having to cancel the camping trip. The CC wants to put both of them on probation for 6 months -- any outburst or confrontation with an adult or youth will result in expulsion from the Troop.

I'm not asking for solutions to this problem -- just curious if others have experienced similar issues, how bad it gotten, and opinions on whether we have any liability issues that we might not be aware of.

 

[frankpalazzi]

Adults being children, Been there, done that, got the battle scars. The COR should insist on a meeting--do it after a troop meeting, then no excuses about "I have another commitment," etc. The COR should "lay it on the line" that if such behavior is exhibited in front of the scouts again, then BOTH adults can enjoy their Scouting elsewhere, regardless of "who started it". Their boys are welcome to stay. The Scout Law prevails here. By the way, Council/District does NOT get involved in these types of matters unless a crime is committed, then they may/may not take action.

 

That type of behavior should get ZERO TOLERANCE in a Scout Troop setting.

 

There are no liability issues that I'm AWARE of, but why take chances? Deal with it NOW.

[Papadaddy]

I agree with Frank, except I would remove them both now. You stated that this was not the first time and that there's a "history" between them. How many "chances" should they get? The liability is that the parents of the other scouts will decide that they don't want their sons subjected to such bad examples of "adult association" and will vote with their feet.

[scoutergipper]

On a tangent, it's hard for me to imagine a Troop with 22 families of Adults and only one or two wants to camp. Even before I took an Adult Leadership position, I loved to camp with the Adult Patrol, even though I wasn't previously much of an outdoorsman. We've always had a ton of Adults available. The Committee's job s to ensure whatever resources the boys need are available - including insisting on 2-deep Leadership assistance if their help is necessary to secure it. The CC should be backstopping you by insisting Adults make themselves available for outings, whether they "like" to go or not.

[SM bob]

I have been in that situation. I'm sorry you are in it. You cannot separate the parents from the scouts when asking someone to leave. I would ask all parents to get ready to camp. If adults do not start volunteering, start decreasing your troop size. Cut the families with the least participation first. My troop has a two strike anti-drama system. 1st time warning. 2nd time expulsion from the troop. All parents agree prior to completing the applications. When I was an ASM, in another troop, a parent yelled at summer camp staff during family day. A few months later he threatened me during a campout. He was informed that he was no longer allowed to come near the meetings or go on any outing. That only caused more grief since his wife would come and complain about everything, very vocally. Parents would also get in email all wars. Scouts are easy to manage. Parents are the problem. If parents don't get what they want they will threaten to leave your troop, complain to district, or cause chaos with other parents. Problem parents are like a cancer. The sooner you cut them out the less painful life becomes.

[qwazse]

A question like this was brought up while I was teaching venturing leader specific training. My bottom line: when adults aren't courteous and kind to one another scouts don't want to be there. I repeated, "When adults argue, youth will leave." Your scouters need to apologize to the boys. If they don't do it on the same night because they can't stand to be in the room with one another, Clearly being unreconciled Is hurting them too.

[Eagledad]

Your situation is challenging because as you said, you don’t have enough adults stepping up. From my perspective, that is your highest priority or the other problems will drag you down.

 

I’ve experienced the ASM who didn’t really agree with my vision for the scouts and the troop. The tension between us never went away because he looked for opportunities to show me up as the SM and prove his style better. The problem solved itself when the adult left the program. Had he not left, we would have had to eventually get our minds aligned. I understand your dilemma, but there may be an opportunity here to fix that problem.

 

One of my biggest disappointments of being the group leader is that most adults will do anything to dodge conflict.

 

Council and district would rather stay out of unit internal conflicts, but if you know someone of wisdom and experience that you can trust outside the troop, I would certainly use their leverage.

 

A strong COR is certainly an advantage.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

For 15 years I worked as ASM with a SM that had the opposite priority than I did. He was adult-led, troop-method and I wasn't. After 15 years I had had enough (nothing ever was obvious to the boys) but I quietly took SM position in another troop. Well, the boy-led, patrol-method wasn't what the parents wanted and I was let go. However, the adult-led, troop-method wasn't either and he was let go from his SM position after 20 years there. The "tension" between us, have been sufficient that we tempered each other's actions.

 

In any case, every situation needs to be evaluated for it's own sake.

 

Now I have a COR, CC, committee and ASM that are all 100% boy-led, patrol-method and things are going very well with the new troop. Sometimes everyone on the same page is a good thing, sometimes not is a good thing. It just depends on the maturity level of the adults and whether or not it is setting a bad example for "lead by example".

 

Stosh

[dfscott]

Thanks all. All good points and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one here.

 

I also just discovered that the Troop Committee member has been trying to hold off-the-record meetings with the other ASMs to discuss "program issues" and activities. Luckily one of the other ASMs let me know, I forwarded to the COR, who let them know that these sorts of divisive meetings were not appropriate.

 

Things have calmed down and the two adults have agreed to be on probation for 6 months. During that period they are to have no interactions with each others sons and will not yell at any of the boys. Unfortunately, I think that they will be unable to successfully complete it.

 

My other ASM, who is also OA Troop Advisor, is in the process of freeing up his schedule so that he can participate more. I don't have any confidence that my other two will be more available, but we'll see. Summer camp is in two weeks, so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

[gsdad]

The OA Troop Advisor needs to remember his first responsibilty is the troop, not the OA.

[frankpalazzi]

The OA Troop Advisor needs to remember his first responsibilty is the troop' date=' not the OA.[/quote']

 

That's what the lodge tells you at your Ordeal, but try to tell THEM that later! It's a whole 'nother topic!

 

[gsdad]

 

That's what the lodge tells you at your Ordeal, but try to tell THEM that later! It's a whole 'nother topic!

 

 

I was a Lodge Officer as a youth and it was preached by our Lodge Advisor. If we weren't active and productive in our unit we heard about it.

[JasonG172]

Conflict resolution needs to occur and quickly with ALL LEADERS - Bring in water and lock the DOORS

[jr56]

Glad you are getting your attendance problem on campouts taken care of. Be prepared to cut those 2 loose if they don't turn it around.

[Stosh]

Conflict resolution needs to occur and quickly with ALL LEADERS - Bring in water and lock the DOORS

 

These gentlemen are at conflict level 4 - Game. Deep down they enjoy the fight. Level 5 - Divorce... game over and someone has to go!, and I don't see after this long of a history either of them wants the other one out of the game. Fun's over if one leaves. These guys thrive on the drama. Stepping in to referee is only enabling them. Getting them to stop is just about impossible. Having them move their little game somewhere else (as far away from the troop as possible) is always a good resolution. If someone in the troop doesn't take on the role of Alpha Male or Alpha Female, these dogs is gonna fight forever.

 

Sounds like one of the two is a regular in 2-deep with not many other options. If one doesn't think for a moment that this person isn't fully aware of that, guess again!

 

You are on the ropes. Good luck.

 

Stosh