Should judges be allowed to be adult scout leaders?

[TAHAWK]

Have one adherent to the Jewish religion who is an atheist post here. I'd like to hear from him or her.

 

I am not an arbiter of who is a Jew, but contending that a religious Jew is an atheist is wrong by definition. After attending a good many Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs, I am confident that Judaism includes a belief in God. I agreed there are non-religious Jews. I know a good many of them sa well. I worked with one for twenty-seven years. He sure identifies as "Jewish" or a "Jew" but is a practicing atheist.

 

Sure there are atheistic religions. Buddhism comes to mind. None I mentioned are in that category. I was sloppy in using "religious" except to modify the name of a deistic religion, for which I apologize to anyone offended. Did you really not understand?

 

So you can't find anyone citing the KKK in Dale. I feel better. The BSA did not compare itself to the KKK in Evan as the BSA was not a party to the case. The local Sea Scout ship was a party, and it did not compare itself to the KKK. It cited a case in which the KKK was a party for an asserted legal point that evidence of discrimination by a national organization is not relevant evidence of discrimination by a local chapter. That argument was rejected by the California courts for, I think, good and sufficient reasons. To be reassured, consult an atheist lawyer regarding the distinction. Evans should never have been brought. Scouts fighting for a subsidy from the City of Berkeley, California? Really?!

 

As I never suggested that genocide was a goal, I cannot respond to your "Have you stopped beating your wife" allegations. If this suggests orthopedic insufficiencies to you, so be it. We disagree on many things. One more is no great difference.

 

Nicely played, by the way,

 

But back to the subject. Bar Scout members because they believe in God so bar Methodists as well? Your only one "t" away from that religion, "Merlyn LeRoy."

 

[Sentinel947]

Nice rhetorical games we play here. In regards to Religion and Geocentricism, Galileo was a firm Catholic. Historical revisionism has made him the Patron Saint of Secularism. Honestly, I think religious people and secular people are gonna have to learn to get along. That's going to take compromises that neither side really wants to make, so the culture war. Conservatives vs liberals, religious vs (humanists) Neither religion nor atheism/humanism is going anywhere. Scouting is at the focal point of this growing pain. It's said that Voltaire once held up a bible and said "in 100 years, this book will be forgotten" now his house in Geneva is owned by a Bible printing company, and Voltaire is still studied in any school that teaches history competently. Just a fun little tidbit that's only tangentially related to the topic. Let's all be civil. Nobody here is genocidal. I'd think genocide is invidious discrimination

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I am not an arbiter of who is a Jew' date=' but contending that a religious Jew is an atheist is wrong by definition.[/quote']

 

How fortunate I never said that. I said "you can be e.g. Jewish or a UU and be an atheist."

 

After attending a good many Bar Mitzvahs and Bat Mitzvahs' date=' I am confident that Judaism includes a belief in God.[/quote']

 

And you can still be Jewish and be an atheist, like I said.

 

As I never suggested that genocide was a goal' date=' I cannot respond to your "Have you stopped beating your wife" allegations.[/quote']

 

Like I said, you lack the spine to back up your own words.

 

But back to the subject. Bar Scout members because they believe in God so bar Methodists as well?

 

Bar scout members for "invidious discrimination". You may have noticed discrimination getting less popular.

[AZMike]

The current policy for the California judges exempts religious organizations and youth organizations (such as Scouts) from the policy against membership in organizations that exclude gays.

 

However, the BSA is still explicitly a religious organization, as defined by a federal court decision, and one which Merlyn is well familiar.

 

U.S. District Court Judge Napoleon Jones, Jr. ruled that the BSA was a religious organization, and that the lease of a half-acre aquatic center on Fiesta Island in San Diego violated the separation of church and state.

 

That would give sufficient standing for any judge who wants to challenge any proposed changes in the judicial canons to argue that, even if they decide that youth organizations cannot be exempted, the BSA still qualifies as a religious organization, based on case law in California, and thus is exempt from any changes in the rules.

[AZMike]

Nice rhetorical games we play here. In regards to Religion and Geocentricism' date=' Galileo was a firm Catholic. [/quote']

 

Very true. Copernicus, the first in Christendom to lay a firm foundation for heliocentrism, was also a strong Catholic, as was Bishop Nicholas of Cusa.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Just like they carved out an exception in favor of the BSA, they can carve out an exception and exclude youth organizations from the religious exemption.

[AZMike]

Just like they carved out an exception in favor of the BSA' date=' they can carve out an exception and exclude youth organizations from the religious exemption.[/quote']

 

They can try to do any number of things, but the question is, will your side win in court? The closer your proposed changes come to resembling a bill of attainder, ("religious organizations are exempt, unless they serve youth, wear khaki unifoms, salute with three fingers, and have the words "Boy," "Scout," and "America" in their official title.") the less likely you are to win. Your own side (the ACLU) argued for the definition as religious, and there IS an actual constitutional amendment that protects that right.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The carved out exemption in favor of the BSA wasn't very specific, either, it was for "youth organizations". An exception for the reverse could easily be the same. The only reason the BSA got the exemption in the first place was due to public support, but they're losing that.

[TAHAWK]

"Merlyn,"again nicely played.

 

I strenuously agree - for the third time - that you can be an atheist and a Jew - or Jewish,

 

But what do you say, guy? Should a Christian be allowed to be a judge? Should someone who follows Judaism - the theistic religion - be allowed to be a judge? Surely you have an opinion on that.

[AZMike]

The carved out exemption in favor of the BSA wasn't very specific' date=' either, it was for "youth organizations". An exception for the reverse could easily be the same. The only reason the BSA got the exemption in the first place was due to public support, but they're losing that.[/quote']

 

According to the Rasmussen reports, 80% said Scouting is good for young people. 59% have a very favorable or somewhat favorable opinion of Boy Scouts, which isn't bad, although the rates have dropped. That compares roughly to the 53% of the population who said they would be less likely to vote for a candidate if he or she was atheist in the Pew Poll that came out today. 5% said they would be more likely to vote for an atheist. Although 41% said they didn't care either way, the atheists came out at the very bottom of how people view the traits of a presidential candidate. More people would vote for an adulterer (or adulteress), a pothead, a candidate in his seventies, a gay or lesbian, or even an incumbent.

 

We're not the only ones with image problems, Merlyn. You might want to factor that in to your calculations.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Why shouldn't they be? Should an atheist be allowed to be a judge?

[TAHAWK]

I think it should depend on the individual, not his religious beliefs - or lack thereof. Integrity. Intelligence. Knowledge of the law. Humanity Demeanor. Commitment to justice. Whether an Atheist, Methodist or Scouter should be irrelevant. In a given case, there may be grounds for recusal. Which is why I think California is all wet.

[Sentinel947]

Just like they carved out an exception in favor of the BSA' date=' they can carve out an exception and exclude youth organizations from the religious exemption.[/quote'] So can they make it so Christians cannot be judges if their branch of Christianity practices "invidious discrimination?" Or does the 1st amendment come into play there? Is the religious exemption there because California wants it to be or because the 1st amendment requires it?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

So can they make it so Christians cannot be judges if their branch of Christianity practices "invidious discrimination?"

 

Possibly. Since there isn't a right to be a judge, they might.

 

[qwazse]

Why shouldn't they be? Should an atheist be allowed to be a judge?

 

Jesus told a parable of a judge who feared neither God nor man. If He thought highly enough of the fella to use him as a simile for the Almighty, I should be in no position to split hairs.

 

Of course, if he had ever been a member of the BSA ... might have to think twice.