Membership Guidelines for Secular Student Alliance

[skeptic]

Found this interesting, especially the parts that indicate that membership can be denied should someone not adhere to the premises of the group. So, if any of these is started in a public school or government related entity they are violating non-descrimination rules? Just wonder how this is any different thatn BSA or religious groups?

 

http://www.secularstudents.org/sites/default/files/SSA_regulations_2013_1_24.pdf

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

After all these years, you STILL can't grasp the difference between a STUDENT-run group, and a SCHOOL-run group?

 

Also, you might want to look up what 'secular' means.

[Stosh]

There is no difference, it just depends on what day of the week it is and whose ox is getting gored. It's call hypocrisy pure and simple and there's no cure for that. There is no limit to the bigotry one can conjure up if given enough latitude. It's kinda like being hyper sensitive to the sliver in someone else's eye while being totally oblivious to the log on one's own.

 

Stosh

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

There is no difference' date=' it just depends on what day of the week it is and whose ox is getting gored.[/quote']

 

100% wrong.

 

You may have noticed that cub scout units can still meet in public schools, they just can't be chartered by the school. Secular Student Alliance groups are just like Fellowship of Christian Athletes and other such groups -- not run by the schools. In some cases, the SSA has to threaten legal action to get schools to obey the laws and allow students to form a club.

[Stosh]

I've never heard of a scout unit being chartered by a school. So then there's no difference.

 

Stosh

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I've never heard of a scout unit being chartered by a school. So then there's no difference.

 

Your ignorance is no excuse.

 

Public schools used to charter about 10% of all BSA units until I contacted the ACLU and they threatened to sue. This was in 2005. The BSA had to recharter (or drop) all those units that were unlawfully chartered by schools and other government entities.

 

[Stosh]

2005 was like almost 10 years ago??? Maybe 8 1/2 or maybe 9 years ago. Long time ago, So now with this being 2014...."I've never heard of a scout unit being chartered by a school.... (maybe it was the case 10 years ago, but not now.) So then there's no difference."

 

Gotta read what's written. Helps keep the dialog going without needing to resort to personal attacks.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Like I said, your ignorance of the past is no excuse.

 

Skeptic is still butthurt about BSA units losing public school charters, so he posted the joining requirements of the SSA, as if the situations were comparable. But like I also said, he still can't understand the difference between school-run groups vs. student-run groups.

[Stosh]

Well, back when I was a scout, it would seem that everyone musta wore different shorts that didn't seem to bundle up as much as it does for a lot of people today. Yep, way back when we had our own room at the school that was called, well, you're not gonna believe this, but it was the Scout Room. Said so on the door. And we got to play in the gym before the meeting too.

 

Yep, must be cuttin' back on the material used in shorts today.

 

That was back in the days when the majority ruled in this country, not the whiny minority.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ah, back when the minority only had as many rights as the majority decided to grant them, that day.

 

That's why atheists have to keep suing. Rights are not granted by the majority to the minority.

[qwazse]

I always thought names should be more affirmative rather than antithetical. "Young Naturalists Society" would have much nicer ring.

 

Anyway, "belief" or "orientation" are not explicitly criteria for exclusion in these by-laws. So, I think that we're talking apples and oranges.

[NJCubScouter]

Stosh, the Constitution is the Constitution, regardless of what kinds of shorts people are wearing. The Constitution prohibits discrimination by the federal and state governments on the basis of religion. The BSA discriminates on the basis of religion, by excluding people who do not believe in a supreme being. Your local public school is owned and operated by the government (or more precisely, a local subdivision of your state government, but still the government for purposes of the Constitution.) Therefore, it cannot own a BSA unit, which by BSA national policy is required to discriminate on the basis of religion. As you point out, schools no longer charter BSA units, but the only reason they don't is that they can't, for the same Constitutional reasons. As Merlyn points out, a BSA unit can meet in the school (if they are chartered to an organization that makes arrangements to use the school.) The Secular club (or whatever it is) also can meet in the school. So, contrary to Skeptic's original point, both organizations are being treated the same. Is this a great country, or what?

[Stosh]

It just depends on how wound the local officials are and how bigotted they are as to whether they allow outside groups of any kind to use public property, i.e. the school. I'd say, rent to all. No problem. The problem lies in renting only to those that conform to certain expectations. Sorry, if they rent the room they can do anything the members want with it. Otherwise, shut it all down and use the school for school only.

 

Go back and read thread #3.

 

Stosh

[NJCubScouter]

Stosh, I am not sure what your point is. Who (if anyone) are you accusing of acting in a bigoted or hypocritical manner, and who is the victim of their bigotry or hypocrisy?

[NJCubScouter]

quazse, you say that "belief" is not an explicit criterion for exclusion. Maybe not explicit, but implicit. The bylaws say: "Any individual who agrees with the purpose of the Secular Student Alliance is eligible for membership." And earlier it says, "The purpose of the Secular Student Alliance is to bring about a society in which the ideals of scientific rationality, secularism, and human based ethics flourish." Actually, that is pretty close to explicitly requiring a specific belief for membership.

 

Having written a few bylaws for student and parent organizations myself, it's clear to me what they really are trying to accomplish is to prevent people who are hostile to their purposes from taking over their organization. I have seen that happen. You have a quiet little club with 20 members, the "We Believe in X" club, and then 40 people show up who believe in "Not-X", elect new officers, and then suddenly your club is opposing what it was created to support. So there is nothing wrong with requiring new members to support the purposes of the organization. (Of course, in a large and complex organization like the BSA, the members can get into debates about what the purposes of the organization really are, which is exactly what has happened in the BSA.)