Self Chartered?

[Pack18Alex]

We were self chartered... When the ones with their names on it lost interest, it was a total headache to fix. Didn't keep up legal filings, you lose incorporated status. That doesn't make you not exist, you're now an unincorporated partnership with 100% liability for everything. Get a real CO, it's a huge benefit and gives you a third party to fix parent squabbles.

[Curious]

Our current problem is the person listed on the charter paperwork as the Executive Officer/COR recently made a claim that he and he alone owns the troop and we can't remove him until he decides to leave.

And he would be correct. As far as the BSA is concerned, he is the owner of the pack. This is one of the reasons why self-chartered organizations are frowned upon.

 

Many parents are ready to leave over this.

You need to discuss the situation with your DE. Look into creating a new unit and then have all the parents fill out transfer apps. The whole thing will be a royal pain, with lots and lots of paperwork to create a new unit and transfer everybody, but it can be done. You might even be able to keep your same unit number ... maybe ....

 

Good Luck!

 

[bobinbako]

And he would be correct. As far as the BSA is concerned, he is the owner of the pack. This is one of the reasons why self-chartered organizations are frowned upon.

 

Actually there are differing opinions on this. I spoke to our former Council Executive and current DE and both say he cannot make unilateral decisions, that the "Parents" have a say.

 

Things have been moving faster than I expected and with the help of all of the advice and information from this forum, and advice and information from other sources, we already have a line on an exiting civic organization that is interested in chartering a troop. We are going to meet within a couple weeks and decide if we want to form our own non-profit or go with an existing organization. I'm pushing for the latter and some others are already on board. Even the COR that started this whole "crisis" is on board for moving to an existing org.

 

Thank you for all the help and I'll keep you updated as we move forward and let everyone know how it works out.

[GrammaScout]

This is a very old thread and i was expecting to find a current one.  We need info !!   Our Troop of 50 years has been Chartered by an ELCA Lutheran Church.  It has about 70 Youth and is exemplary!   But with Church Leadership having zero knowledge of Scouting, they have decided that the Charter says:  They own it AND They RUN it....and 'they' do not have people or time to do that so out it goes !!....black and white, dangerous thinkers.... So they will no longer sign the Charter and we need to find a new CO ASAP.    They say they did not 'know' that the Troop would be disbanded Dec. 31...even though several of us DID tell them...but they know better, right?   There must have been some softening because now:  they are still working on a Facilities Usage Agreement, rental price TBD, and have signed the Charter but only to March 31..   A nearby smaller Lutheran Church has some interest but they must thoroughly discuss becoming a CO and that is still happening.   Meanwhile Plan B: is for the Troop to Charter itself  and  it doesn't sound like they know what they are doing.   We have been unable to find ANY info on how this is done, must be done, etc.   So here I am...desperate for information....

I have read where such a Troop must declare itself a 'corporation', get a TaxID number as a non*profit and make certain all things are 'legally' correct.   This sounds daunting.   One of the Adult Scouters has already formed a Board...?    but with no input from the rest of the Adults...?.....Two of the four members are actually members of the Church...??.....and that is not a good idea.     We await answers from detailed questions to the Council...probably this coming week but no certainty there actually will be answers.

The Chair of this 'Board' is actually the Church President, a person who participated in disbanding the Scouts and who voted in favor of doing it...!!!!   We want him nowhere near this Troop....Does such a Board then make all decisions on 'managing' the Troop?   Do they sign checks?   This whole scenario is foreboding of a smaller version of  'Church people' running things....Can they just take the authority to do all this?   The second person on this Board is the COR of the Churchf !!    He is a scouting advocate but he has clearly been a representative of the CHURCH and rather useless to the Troop....are these two acting out of 'guilt' perhaps?   We do NOT want them....This seems to be a situation where the Council must step in and set things in order...in the proper fashion.   One of our sons is an Asst. Scoutmaster and he is as puzzled as to these actions as we are.       We are on our knees praying that this other nearby Lutheran Church will hear the call and take us in.......We don't want to even have 'facility usage' here any longer as the 'rules' will likely be over-done if not punitive.....which we have already been seeing over the last several years.

We are also 30 year highly involved members of this Church, but this has caused a schism that is likely unrepairable.  

This is really a 'sad-sack' post here...sorry for that.   But we need help.....thanks all...

 

[malraux]

6 minutes ago, GrammaScout said:

We need info !

First of all, its probably time to check in with your DE. Some of these questions are best handled by the professional. IE your council may or may not allow a Friends of Troop 123 to be a chartering organization. There is also lots of different legal qualifications between not for profit vs 501c3.

Regardless, since the new organization will be completely distinct from the old, you can be selective in who runs the new one, subject to the normal rules of politics.

Moving to a new church, Lion club, rotary organization, etc is going to be preferable.

[yknot]

The other thing I would suggest based on your other posts is for everyone involved in the unit to get the latest version of Guide to Safe Scouting and review it. It is available online. I think this is the latest version: 

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/toc/

A lot of the turmoil with Chartering Orgs is over liability issues. Make sure everything you are doing follows current BSA policy. A lot of things have changed, even in the past few years. You mentioned that you allow older scouts to chip wood using a wood chipper for a fundraiser, which is not allowed by BSA. Those kinds of things might be a red flag for any potential new CO, like the smaller Lutheran Church you are hoping will take you on. Just make sure you are not shooting yourselves in the foot somehow.  Good luck. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by yknot

[fred8033]

8 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

... We are on our knees praying that this other nearby Lutheran Church will hear the call and take us in.......We don't want to even have 'facility usage' here any longer as the 'rules' will likely be over-done if not punitive.....which we have already been seeing over the last several years.

We are also 30 year highly involved members of this Church, but this has caused a schism that is likely unrepairable.  

This is really a 'sad-sack' post here...sorry for that.   But we need help.....thanks all...

 

I'd encourage everyone to find a way to work together.  This is stressful and gut wrenching for all.  

General comments.   

• Your church has a right to be concerned about signing the charter org agreement.   It's not honorific.  It's a contract.  Words matter. ...  The agreement says your church would "Conduct the Scouting program consistent with BSA rules, regulations, and policies."  By signing, it your church is accepting responsibility.  Your church needs to have a plan to fulfill that commitment.  Maybe it means a board member involved in the unit.  Maybe the COR/CC are involved in the church board.  Maybe there is a planned staff structure.  Maybe there is a reporting structure.  ... The key is if the church is not willing to set that up and take responsibility, it should not sign the charter.  
• Your church still owns the unit even if it doesn't re-charter the unit.  Chartering is about being active and having members.  Ownership is about unit numbers, bank account, assets, etc.  If you want to change to another church, you need to work with the current church to release the number and assets.  
• Your church spinning off an independent board with leadership to run the unit and at the same time pursuing a facility use agreement sounds like they want to keep the unit running.  It can be seen as good.  
• Getting a tax id is easy.  Keeping non-profit records is a bit harder, but not a killer.  

Youth will notice #1 a new building / facility and #2 adults not getting along with each other.  

This really sounds like an adult and adult relationship issue triggered by the current chartering challenges.  

 

[SSScout]

*sigh*.   Thee is not alone, friend.   Many COs are backing away from the BSA because of the past problems. The BSA has essentially run out of rugs to sweep things under.  What is missed is that the old problems  should not affect the future. The slate , if not the reputation , is being wiped clean (I hope) .   

The House of Worship that chartered my old Troop and Pack for better than 60 years (a methodist church)  was told by the Circuit that the UMC would no longer sponsor Scout units. Deadline 31 December.  Not withstanding the "new" understanding, (March 31?), whatever that may be,  the Scouts had to go find a new CO, which they did.  The local VFD picked them up, bless them.  The move was amicable, the church did not demand immediate vacating of the closets etc.  The pastor was (is) very Scout friendly and was apologetic for what  was required of her higher ups.  Up to recently, the methodist church saw  Scouting to be a very worthy program for young men (and now women), and was only caught up in the ongoing scandals.

The church was vary cooperative, saw the Scout units, not so much as a Church Youth Program (very few kids were from church families), but worthy of support none the less.  The unrealized possible liability (read the fine print in the Charter Agreement)  and BSA's past lack of transparency and responsibility led to the UMC not wanting to continue, the Men's Commission statement and desire not withstanding. 

And so we continue.  See you on the trail. 

 

[GrammaScout]

On 2/6/2022 at 12:30 PM, GrammaScout said:

This is a very old thread and i was expecting to find a current one.  We need info !!   Our Troop of 50 years has been Chartered by an ELCA Lutheran Church.  It has about 70 Youth and is exemplary!   But with Church Leadership having zero knowledge of Scouting, they have decided that the Charter says:  They own it AND They RUN it....and 'they' do not have people or time to do that so out it goes !!....black and white, dangerous thinkers.... So they will no longer sign the Charter and we need to find a new CO ASAP.    They say they did not 'know' that the Troop would be disbanded Dec. 31...even though several of us DID tell them...but they know better, right?   There must have been some softening because now:  they are still working on a Facilities Usage Agreement, rental price TBD, and have signed the Charter but only to March 31..   A nearby smaller Lutheran Church has some interest but they must thoroughly discuss becoming a CO and that is still happening.   Meanwhile Plan B: is for the Troop to Charter itself  and  it doesn't sound like they know what they are doing.   We have been unable to find ANY info on how this is done, must be done, etc.   So here I am...desperate for information....

I have read where such a Troop must declare itself a 'corporation', get a TaxID number as a non*profit and make certain all things are 'legally' correct.   This sounds daunting.   One of the Adult Scouters has already formed a Board...?    but with no input from the rest of the Adults...?.....Two of the four members are actually members of the Church...??.....and that is not a good idea.     We await answers from detailed questions to the Council...probably this coming week but no certainty there actually will be answers.

The Chair of this 'Board' is actually the Church President, a person who participated in disbanding the Scouts and who voted in favor of doing it...!!!!   We want him nowhere near this Troop....Does such a Board then make all decisions on 'managing' the Troop?   Do they sign checks?   This whole scenario is foreboding of a smaller version of  'Church people' running things....Can they just take the authority to do all this?   The second person on this Board is the COR of the Churchf !!    He is a scouting advocate but he has clearly been a representative of the CHURCH and rather useless to the Troop....are these two acting out of 'guilt' perhaps?   We do NOT want them....This seems to be a situation where the Council must step in and set things in order...in the proper fashion.   One of our sons is an Asst. Scoutmaster and he is as puzzled as to these actions as we are.       We are on our knees praying that this other nearby Lutheran Church will hear the call and take us in.......We don't want to even have 'facility usage' here any longer as the 'rules' will likely be over-done if not punitive.....which we have already been seeing over the last several years.

We are also 30 year highly involved members of this Church, but this has caused a schism that is likely unrepairable.  

This is really a 'sad-sack' post here...sorry for that.   But we need help.....thanks all...

 

 Apparently there is a 'second' type of 'self-charter' wherein the Board applies for Non-profit status and obtains a Tax ID number.  This is what our Troop is considering.  But so many questions...Two DE's have adamantly advised against doing this and just reading a few posts on Forums seems to back up the advice that 'you don't want to do this'.   But:  A 'Board' has formed themselves and is moving rapidly with the paper work before March 31 when the extended Charter expires.  Concerns are about assets, particulary the funds.  Concerns about just 'who' is the boss....the Scoutmaster or the Board or perhaps the Chairman of that Board?    Is the umbrella liability insurance from the BSA sufficient?   There is no end to the questions and with this being so unusual we can find no answers.    Any input is appreciated.  thanks

'

 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, GrammaScout said:

There is no end to the questions and with this being so unusual we can find no answers. 

No scouting answer because it's not about scouting.  It about running a non-profit corporation. 

I'll back off on advice at this point.  Find someone with expertise running a non-profit.  Structure it very well.  Find a good accountant (separate from your unit treasurer).  Or work with your the head of your previous non-profit who's willing to help do this. 

While reading on this, I was reminded that things have drastically evolved.  Want incorporation bylaws ? ...
https://www.rocketlawyer.com/sem/non-profit-bylaws.rl?id=1547&partnerid=103&cid=15314942304&adgid=129546565906&loc_int=&loc_phys=9019558&mt=b&ntwk=g&dv=c&adid=359735223576&kw=minnesota non-profit bylaws&adpos=&plc=&trgt=&trgtid=kwd-880441017292&gclid=Cj0KCQiAr5iQBhCsARIsAPcwROMryOJOk4f9EngqMvRwOhCJgSM7mzVyHwgyINsgqc5TsI1VK7iLX54aAvbDEALw_wcB#/

[BAJ]

10 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

Is the umbrella liability insurance from the BSA sufficient?   There is no end to the questions and with this being so unusual we can find no answers. 

The troops I have been associated with have all had traditional chartering organization structures, but in the course of a Wood Badge project I did some interviews with other troops focusing on how they were managing COVID risk early in the pandemic. One was a troop that was a “self chartered” troop with a “Parents of Troop X” organization (had been for many years and indicated it wasn’t an option in their council currently).  They were very concerned about insurance coverage, and coverage that included provisions to defend against suits against both the organization and the adult volunteers, not just that would pay out if there was a judgment.  The concern was that even an allegation that was later found to be spurious could bankrupt an adult leader named as a result of the defense costs.