Soda on camping trips

[Tampa Turtle]

Just a couple of comments.

 

2) SPL approves Patrol menus? When do you plan on teaching leadership to the PL's. Another example of top down management control vs. real leadership from those trying to lead. And to make it worse, the SPL is accountable to the SM? Obviously the troop has only one real leader and that's an adult.

 

A bit more mentoring and a lot less rules goes a long way in building real leadership among the boys, where it should be.

 

A few instructional classes by the SPL to help the patrols plan better menus might be in order. The first lesson on empty calories might be a good start.

 

Forcing the boys into compliance on nutrition will only encourage contraband. It is far better to eat well so that the junk food doesn't become a necessity to the boys.

 

Stosh

 

I beg to differ with my esteemed colleague. The SPL and the PL's work it out, The SPL (and most of the older boys) usually coming around to wanting 'real food and lots of it' on a campout, Frequently the SPL will have a funny story about him and another boy and nothing but junk food on a long hike. And the SPL and older boys usually do a talk on meal planning, etc. The SM is really only there to back up the SPL if needed. Mostly at the "Ask your SPL". Seems to me pretty boy led.

 

As for contraband "A Scout is Honest" and all that. Actually some of the parents are part of the problem--I cannot believe what they feed their kids. So if the kids are getting lots of junk at home they are gonna want it on the campout.

 

In general the quality of the food the boys have planned and cooked are getting better--it is an issue some of the Patrols rally around. Working on the stay in budget part...

[Tampa Turtle]

So sorry for the tangent' date=' but I found this funny. A few years ago we went to a Council summer camp. One of our boys wanted coffee but was told he could not have any because of the caffeine. Later I took a trip to the trading post and you'll never guess what they sold there. Monster, Red Bull, Mountain Dew, etc. I asked the camp director about the logic of denying coffee to Scouts but allowing them to buys stuff with 3-4x the amount of caffeine of coffee. His reply? The "visual" of a Scout drinking coffee was worse than that of one drinking Red Bull or Monster. Never went back to that camp. The result was a troop policy where parents must give permission for any such drinks to be allowed for their Scout during travel or camp. Can you imagine an ADHD kid on Monster and Skittles? [/quote']

 

Yeah this sort of thing seems to be the case at a lot of Scout Camps if revenue is involved. I have seen boys get really sick off to many SlushPuppies at camp. We have a couple boys who want coffee--we actually don't have a Troop policy on that. Tough call...my ADD son calms down from the caffeine but you can NEVER give it to my sensory issues/asbergers son--you'll be dealing with issues all day.

[Eagledad]

 

I beg to differ with my esteemed colleague. The SPL and the PL's work it out.

..

 

You are much kinder TT in your reply. I have much to learn. Is it really so hard to present ideas without tearing the other guy down?

 

Sorry for the hijack.

 

Barry

[perdidochas]

So sorry for the tangent' date=' but I found this funny. A few years ago we went to a Council summer camp. One of our boys wanted coffee but was told he could not have any because of the caffeine. Later I took a trip to the trading post and you'll never guess what they sold there. Monster, Red Bull, Mountain Dew, etc. I asked the camp director about the logic of denying coffee to Scouts but allowing them to buys stuff with 3-4x the amount of caffeine of coffee. His reply? The "visual" of a Scout drinking coffee was worse than that of one drinking Red Bull or Monster. Never went back to that camp. The result was a troop policy where parents must give permission for any such drinks to be allowed for their Scout during travel or camp. Can you imagine an ADHD kid on Monster and Skittles? [/quote']

 

An ADHD kid on Monster and skittles will probably calm down (well, unless they are sensitive to food dyes). Ritalin is a stimulant. Red Bull or Monster is how some ADHD people self-medicate legally. It's the "normal" kids who go crazy on Monster and skittles.

 

That said, I agree with you with the coffee thing. I have no problem with our boys drinking coffee. None have really done it recently. My youngest needs coffee, usually on Thursday morning. Not for ADHD, but for sleep.

[Stosh]

 

You are much kinder TT in your reply. I have much to learn. Is it really so hard to present ideas without tearing the other guy down?

 

Sorry for the hijack.

 

Barry

 

One of the things I have learned from the forums, not just this one, is that what is presented and what is absorbed isn't always the same thing. What works for one may not work for another, but it might offer a "try" that could be attempted to see if it helps in their situations. I try to keep my comments from being taken personally by others by using the third person pronouns as much as possible and stay clear of the second person pronouns which offer a harsher tone.

 

I don't have a problem with the ways others do things in their troops, it seems to be working for them. However, when one finds themselves in a difficult situation any suggestions from others, either good or bad, seems to allow for some alternatives to the problems they are facing. I know and expect a lot of my comments to be tossed into the trash can, but someone out there may find them helpful. One of the things that amaze me is that a lot of the problems plaguing others have never come up in my units. Either I'm doing something right or I'm really lucky.

 

I don't mind the occasional hijack, especially in the area of courtesy on the forum, no apology necessary.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

 

I beg to differ with my esteemed colleague. The SPL and the PL's work it out, The SPL (and most of the older boys) usually coming around to wanting 'real food and lots of it' on a campout, Frequently the SPL will have a funny story about him and another boy and nothing but junk food on a long hike. And the SPL and older boys usually do a talk on meal planning, etc. The SM is really only there to back up the SPL if needed. Mostly at the "Ask your SPL". Seems to me pretty boy led.

 

As for contraband "A Scout is Honest" and all that. Actually some of the parents are part of the problem--I cannot believe what they feed their kids. So if the kids are getting lots of junk at home they are gonna want it on the campout.

 

In general the quality of the food the boys have planned and cooked are getting better--it is an issue some of the Patrols rally around. Working on the stay in budget part...

 

To me it's a bit of "follow the money" kind of thinking. Follow the Level of Authority (LOA) as used in the structure of most groups. I don't have a problem with "ask the SPL" being boy-led, but that always begs the question of has one gone far enough? In the example given, the SPL was "accountable" to the SM which makes the LOA go up one more layer to the real leader. Unless the PL is accountable to himself and is responsible for taking on the decision making in a patrol (patrol-method) then there is no real personal responsibility left in his hands. To me having to answer to the "next level up" isn't leadership, it's simply following the rules which ends up being the controlling authority. This is why I operate with as few rules as possible and leave the mistakes and subsequent responsibility in the hands of the PL's. The SPL and SM are there to help pick up the pieces and mentor for the next foray the PL takes on with his patrol. After all any of the scout leaders in the troop (PL's) that haven't made mistakes and learned to deal with it, will never be able to mentor others who do.

 

Stosh

[Gone]

I always tell people I work for the SPL. Have a shirt that says it too. If I could sell them at summer camp to other SMs I'd make a million. Which I would immediately put in my ISA.

 

[see how I tied two threads together? ]

[Gone]

An ADHD kid on Monster and skittles will probably calm down (well, unless they are sensitive to food dyes). Ritalin is a stimulant. Red Bull or Monster is how some ADHD people self-medicate legally. It's the "normal" kids who go crazy on Monster and skittles.

\

You'd think that would be the case (calming down) but with the meds and the RB it went the other way. In fact, I texted the mom and she nearly flipped when she heard her son had a RB and skittles. Did not blame the adults but asked we keep him from the trading post. I simply told the kid no more and he obliged. Even spoke to the TP clerk and she said he was very honest and did not try to buy it again. Reported same to mom.

 

 

That said, I agree with you with the coffee thing. I have no problem with our boys drinking coffee. None have really done it recently. My youngest needs coffee, usually on Thursday morning. Not for ADHD, but for sleep.

I cannot find a BSA policy on it, so I suspect it was a camp thing. I just found the irony very funny watching guys sucking down RB and Monster in the dining hall and not allowed to have coffee. As weak as the coffee was they were getting mroe caffeine in the RB.

 

[Eagledad]

I admit that I struggle with the general presumption that All SPLs are beholden to Scoutmasters and those programs are automatically dictatorial one man shows. There may be some troops like that, but it is far from the norm. And I don't care what kind of troop there is, even the scoutmasters of two scout troops should be the visionary directors of the program. It's naive at best to suggest that multiple layers of responsibility automatically requires a SM to be a dictator. That just shows a lack of creativity, But respect also behooves walking a mile in the other mans shoes. At the very least, humility demands assuming other units of all shapes and sizes that we haven't personally observed to be equal or better performing than ours. Most folks have no idea of the rare skills required to guide a larger boy run troop of several patrols who perform equally or better than a boy run troop of single patrol. Generalized degrading simplifications are either a show of ignorance or arrogance.

 

Barry

[King Ding Dong]

An ADHD kid on Monster and skittles will probably calm down (well' date=' unless they are sensitive to food dyes). Ritalin is a stimulant. Red Bull or Monster is how some ADHD people self-medicate legally. It's the "normal" kids who go crazy on Monster and skittles. That said, I agree with you with the coffee thing. I have no problem with our boys drinking coffee. None have really done it recently. My youngest needs coffee, usually on Thursday morning. Not for ADHD, but for sleep.[/quote'] Agreed to a point. The trick on the stimulants is finding the optimal amount. To much and things can go downhill really fast. Last summer my son went nuts at the trading post on Thursday with sour gummies ( artificial food color) ice cream and a Pepsi. By the call out ceremony he just couldn't keep his hands to himself. I had to drag him back to the campsite and nearly strung him up on the bear line.

[Gone]

By the call out ceremony he just couldn't keep his hands to himself. I had to drag him back to the campsite and nearly strung him up on the bear line.

You and another leader, of course.

 

[Gone]

And I don't care what kind of troop there is' date=' even the scoutmasters of two scout troops should be the visionary directors of the program.[/quote']

Yup, that's the job description and I think that is implied here when folks talk about deferring to the SPL. There is no way any SPL is going to be able to handle everything, which is why adult leaders are there.

 

[perdidochas]

Agreed to a point. The trick on the stimulants is finding the optimal amount. To much and things can go downhill really fast. Last summer my son went nuts at the trading post on Thursday with sour gummies ( artificial food color) ice cream and a Pepsi. By the call out ceremony he just couldn't keep his hands to himself. I had to drag him back to the campsite and nearly strung him up on the bear line.

 

My observation is that certain food dyes can exacerbate things. Rarely do kids have a problem with a chocolate bar and a coke, usually it's something like skittles with mountain dew.

[perdidochas]

You and another leader, of course.

 

It was his son, not another scout.....

[Stosh]

Yup, that's the job description and I think that is implied here when folks talk about deferring to the SPL. There is no way any SPL is going to be able to handle everything, which is why adult leaders are there.

 

If one were to push the mentoring to the next level, YES the SPL is going to be able to handle everything. He is the PL to the PL's. In an 8 patrol troop he should have his focus 100% on the PL's and helping them be successful. The PL's handle their 6-7 boys on their own. Too often than not, the SPL spreads himself wide and shallow trying to handle everything in the troop and basically nothing gets done and the PL's are sitting around doing nothing. Narrow and deep is the answer. The SPL needs to develop great PL's and the problems of the patrol will never get to him in the first place.

 

The only time one hears "Go ask the SPL", it had better be two PL's discussing a problem. If it is not, then the two scouts should be saying "Go ask the PL". As I have mentioned many times before, a highly trained professional teacher has difficulty maintaining order in a classroom of 30 students, yet we expect a novice leader with no training in crowd control to handle troops of 40+ boys? It is doomed before one starts.

 

One SPL handles 8 PL's. 8 PL's handle patrols of 8 boys. 64+ boys in the troop and NO ONE has responsibility to mentor/guide/help/support more than 8 boys. That's doable in any group! One has PL's use them and let the SPL be senior mentor to them and let the PL's handle their patrols.

 

The SPL to "runs the troop" is titular head of a troop-method troop. Titular because it's a title only and with the bigger troops, it takes more than one leader to make it successful.

 

If there ever was a need for an SPL in my troop, it was always decided by the PL's, never a general election. The PL's decide who it is that will be mentoring/helping/supporting them. Nothing worse than 3-5 PL's and a popularly elected SPL that doesn't know anything about helping the PL's be successful.

 

And as to the last line of the quote: NO, if done properly, there is no reason for any adult leaders to be there.

 

Stosh