Poll shows decline in support for Boy Scouts

[King Ding Dong]

What?

Sentinel, As Johnny Carson often said if you have to explain a joke it isn't funny. Ummm, are you a old enough to know who Johnny Carson is ? That's OK. This is Movie Quote Night. You probably didn't get my Capt. Willard quite either, (other thread). Hint (Gay Marriage): investigate Mozartbrau's image (he gets it). Capt. Willard: "Winning!" Sorry if I am going to Dennis Miller on you.

[Tampa Turtle]

(Heavy sigh) Nice to know people are still looking at Scouter I guess. BSA botched the whole Gay thing...I get hammered by both sides. I don't really care though what the current polls say.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Homosexual marriage is not the issue. It's basically the issue of using the word Marriage in the discussion. There is nothing to say that homosexuals can't have a legal contract which can be set up to be a "marriage" in effective reality. Each person gives power of attorney to each other. They put down beneficiaries in each other's names' date=' they set up a living will declaring each other as the "next of kin", etc.[/quote']

 

And get spousal privilege (can't be forced to testify against your spouse) -- oh wait, that's IMPOSSIBLE without a real marriage.

And get your non-American spouse an immigrant visa -- oh wait, you can't unless they are your real spouse.

 

In any case, getting the over 1,000 advantages of marriage separately takes a lot of time, a great deal more money, and some are not even possible.

 

That's one of the big reasons for legal gay marriage. There really IS no equivalent to legal marriage under US law.

[SSScout]

(From the Blues Brothers): "I've always loved you".

[Stosh]

 

And get spousal privilege (can't be forced to testify against your spouse) -- oh wait, that's IMPOSSIBLE without a real marriage.

And get your non-American spouse an immigrant visa -- oh wait, you can't unless they are your real spouse.

 

In any case, getting the over 1,000 advantages of marriage separately takes a lot of time, a great deal more money, and some are not even possible.

 

That's one of the big reasons for legal gay marriage. There really IS no equivalent to legal marriage under US law.

 

Then change the legal laws, but quit trying to force legal issues into the religious arena. If a business man doesn't want to make a homosexual wedding cake, so be it, it's his prerogative to refuse service to anyone he/she wishes. Ask any bartender. Forcing clergy to perform religious ceremonies is another infringement on separation of church and state. Religious organizations should be able to on religious grounds select members of their own choice without being legally sued.

 

The point being, there's this whole separation of church and state, that means the state is to mind it's own business and leave the religious issues to the church.

 

If this whole brouhaha is because people want to be free from religious influences, well, it's about time religious people be free from the crap forced on them by the government, too. If a religious issue comes before any government court, it should be tossed out. They have no business dealing with it.

 

Maybe it's time we tossed out the American flag from every church sanctuary in the country, too.

 

So we're back to the middle ages once more. Does the King hold the stirrup for the Pope, or does the Pope hold the stirrup for the King? Isn't it great how far we've come in the past... well, forever years? The Roman Empire did a better job on this issue than we do today!

 

Stosh

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Marriage IS a legal issue.

 

The Catholic Church won't marry divorced people whose former spouses are still alive, because they still consider the couple married -- but the same couple can be legally married, because the state recognizes the divorce.

 

On the other side of the coin, some religions and churches recognize gay marriages in states where it isn't recognized, so people married in these religions/churches are not recognized as married, even though the congregants do.

 

If a business man doesn't want to make a homosexual wedding cake, so be it, it's his prerogative to refuse service to anyone he/she wishes. Ask any bartender.

 

Ask if the bartender can refuse to sell to a gay patron, in the same state where a bakery has to sell cakes to a gay customer.

 

The point being, there's this whole separation of church and state, that means the state is to mind it's own business and leave the religious issues to the church.

 

Marriage isn't exclusively a religious issue, and hasn't been for a long time.

 

How would you suggest the state get out of the marriage business? What happens to the status of currently married couples? What happens in the future -- do church marriages have any legal recognition? Can any group conduct marriages? Is there a legal contract analogous to marriage that the state recognizes? If so, what happens if people still refer to that new legal status as "marriage"?

 

[King Ding Dong]

Have I really missed something here ? I have never heard of any governmental entity requiring a religious organization to perform any ceremony gay or straight. I have never heard of anyone even suggest that occur. Where are you comming up with this stuff ?

[walk in the woods]

But Deron Smith' date=' a spokesman for the Boy Scouts’ national headquarters in Irving, said: “Our findings indicate that the BSA enjoys very strong good will and is seen as the organization that offers life-changing experiences youth cannot get anywhere else." [/quote']

 

And exactly what life-changing experiences can youth only access through scouting? That is the larger question to me and the answer is few if any.

[Eagledad]

 

And exactly what life-changing experiences can youth only access through scouting? That is the larger question to me and the answer is few if any.

 

Well of course that is a personal opinion, I have lots of life changing stories that scouts and their parents have passed on to me long after they were in the program.

 

Could those scouts have had the same life changing experience with another organization? Who knows, maybe. But they had the experience in scouting, so I agree with the Deron that the BSA does offer life changing experiences.

[perdidochas]

 

And exactly what life-changing experiences can youth only access through scouting? That is the larger question to me and the answer is few if any.

 

I wouldn't say only, but I don't know of many organizations out there at a national level that allow 15 yr old boys to supervise a group of 11-15 yr olds in projects that cost thousands of dollars. There are few groups that allow boys to have true leadership of a group of other boys. In addition, there are no other organizations that promote safe usage of the outdoors.

[walk in the woods]

I'm not trying to bash the BSA, just asking a question based on the BSA spokesperson's claim. When faced with declining membership and declining public support, one needs to take a hard look at the value-add of the program.

 

Any youth-serving organization can access outfitters in the BWCAW, sign up for a week with Adventures on the Gorge, charter an adventure in the Keys or go hiking in the Rockies. Summer camps are offered by many church denominations and 4H clubs. Our local 4H and FFA groups do weekend outings similar to those done by scout units. My son participated in a national group called PeaceJam that got to meet Nobel Peace Prize Laureates. That's certainly a life-changing experience available outside of scouting. So, while the BSA may offer life-changing experiences we certainly can't claim that youth can't get those experiences outside of scouting.

 

Perdidochas, I'd argue the FFA does a pretty good job with project work, at least around these parts. The local FFA chapter uses youth leadership to put in and take out a field every year, runs a green house, runs an annual produce sale fundraiser, etc. I have less exposure to 4H but those youth all have impressive projects on display at the county fair every year. Campfire has a service project award. Using youth leadership for projects isn't unique to the BSA either.

 

As for organizations promoting safe usage of the outdoors, certainly NOLS and Outward Bound are available for exactly that purpose. Expensive maybe but available. I know there are local outfitters in my area that would be happy to offer training and trips. One could argue the BPSA or TL or campfire offer a similar set of outdoor educational programming opportunities.

 

We compete for youth and parent's time and treasure. At a macro level we're losing and we have been for sometime now, certainly pre-dating the decision of last spring. Even if National announced next month that they made a mistake last year and were going to go with the local option I'm not convinced the decline would stop or even slow much. So, if we're really interested in addressing declining membership and sagging support we need some honest evaluation of our strengths and weaknesses. My question remains, what is our value add? How do we change the calculus?

[Eagledad]

You didn't ask a question in your first post, you implied that you doubted the validity of the statement. Now you asking the question but I don't think you really want the answer because your somehow trying to justify your doubt by mentioning the FAA, 4H, NOLS, TL. How do those programs prevent the a scout from having a life changing experience? What does losing membership have to do with a life changing experience. I think you are bashing the BSA and just afraid to admit it. You must not have had a good experience because a scout is brave. Barry

[perdidochas]

I'm not trying to bash the BSA, just asking a question based on the BSA spokesperson's claim. When faced with declining membership and declining public support, one needs to take a hard look at the value-add of the program.

 

Any youth-serving organization can access outfitters in the BWCAW, sign up for a week with Adventures on the Gorge, charter an adventure in the Keys or go hiking in the Rockies. Summer camps are offered by many church denominations and 4H clubs. Our local 4H and FFA groups do weekend outings similar to those done by scout units. My son participated in a national group called PeaceJam that got to meet Nobel Peace Prize Laureates. That's certainly a life-changing experience available outside of scouting. So, while the BSA may offer life-changing experiences we certainly can't claim that youth can't get those experiences outside of scouting.

 

Perdidochas, I'd argue the FFA does a pretty good job with project work, at least around these parts. The local FFA chapter uses youth leadership to put in and take out a field every year, runs a green house, runs an annual produce sale fundraiser, etc. I have less exposure to 4H but those youth all have impressive projects on display at the county fair every year. Campfire has a service project award. Using youth leadership for projects isn't unique to the BSA either.

 

As for organizations promoting safe usage of the outdoors, certainly NOLS and Outward Bound are available for exactly that purpose. Expensive maybe but available. I know there are local outfitters in my area that would be happy to offer training and trips. One could argue the BPSA or TL or campfire offer a similar set of outdoor educational programming opportunities.

 

We compete for youth and parent's time and treasure. At a macro level we're losing and we have been for sometime now, certainly pre-dating the decision of last spring. Even if National announced next month that they made a mistake last year and were going to go with the local option I'm not convinced the decline would stop or even slow much. So, if we're really interested in addressing declining membership and sagging support we need some honest evaluation of our strengths and weaknesses. My question remains, what is our value add? How do we change the calculus?

 

 

I think this is a local thing. If we make our troops attractive to parents and scouts, and we provide a good program, at least locally scouting will survive. Looking around our district, I see a lot of floundering troops that aren't delivering a good program.

 

Locally, we only have 4-H and FFA. There aren't nearly as many 4-Hers and FFAers as there are Scouts, and to be honest, they don't appeal to as many kids as Scouts.

 

Yes, good experiences can be had without scouting, but I'm not sure they are really equivalent. 4-H and FFA are about producing farmers, and outside of farm areas, they don't appeal much. I don't even know if we have local Campfire folks.

[Gone]

"Gay Marriage is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face."

 

Now, you see, why thow this out there?

 

Resonable people can disagree and have a responsible discussion. You mentioned that 50% of the nation supported your stance and I questions the source. Why stoop to such statements as above just because someone disagrees? Dillutes your credibility.

[King Ding Dong]

Now' date=' you see, why thow this out there? Resonable people can disagree and have a responsible discussion. You mentioned that 50% of the nation supported your stance and I questions the source. Why stoop to such statements as above just because someone disagrees? Dillutes your credibility.[/quote'] General Turgidson don't tell me your you have lost your sense of humor like BD. Maybe Flouridation is insidious. YIS, General Ripper