2 questions about WEBELOS

[HappyHitchhiker]

I have a few questions (both as a parent and as a soon-to-be den leader):

Parent question: What can be done to help a boy earn his Outdoorsman and Readyman badges for his AOL when he does not want to camp away from home? He is the youngest in the den and just does not want to camp away from home yet. As a family they camp in the yard, have a campfire, look at the stars, etc.. His den requires that these two badges be earned at summer camp (overnight) as well as the Aquanaut badge. The den leaders will also not accept any camping experience not done with the den. The leaders say that the boy is not fully participating in the scouting experience by not going to the cub scout family campouts or the week long summer camp. Crossover is in December (he will just be turning 10) and these things need to be completed this summer.

 

Question as a den leader: This year was a mess (in my opinion) because the leaders turned everything over to the boys to do and plan. While I agree that the boys need to learn to lead others this seemed VERY disorganized. In 7 months the den has only completed 3 badges as a group (the requirements for WEBELOS rank). Can a den leader plan everything out in a time frame and then have a boy help lead at that time? I had a group of Tigers and Wolves a few year years ago and this is how I ran those. The current den leaders state that Boy Scouts is entirely boy ran and the leaders are there for supervision only which is what they do in WEBELOS so that the boys get used to learning from each other. I know it could take my son a whole day just to get dressed if I left it up to a 9 year old to do it on his own. This seems very inefficient. I will be a new den leader this summer.

[perdidochas]

1. The den cannot require that the badges be earned at summer camp. Requirements are done based on the guidelines. Nothing in the Outdoorsman badge says that it has to be done at summer camp.

 

Here are the requirements: [TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Outdoorsman requirements[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=colspan: 2]Do two of these:

1. Present yourself to your Webelos den leader, properly dressed, as you would be for an overnight campout. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it.
   
2. With your family or Webelos den, help plan and take part in an evening outdoor activity that includes a campfire.
   
3. With your parent or guardian, take part in a Webelos den overnight campout or a family campout. Sleep in a tent that you have helped pitch.
   
4. With your parent or guardian, camp overnight with a Boy Scout troop. Sleep in a tent that you have helped pitch.
   

And do five of these:

1. During a Webelos den meeting, discuss how to follow the Leave No Trace Frontcountry Guidelines during outdoor activities.
   
2. Participate in an outdoor conservation project with your Webelos den or a Boy Scout troop.
   
3. Discuss with your Webelos den leader the rules of outdoor fire safety. Using these rules, show how to build a safe fire and put it out.
   
4. With your accompanying adult on a campout or outdoor activity, assist in preparing, cooking, and cleanup for one of your den's meals. Tell why it is important for each den member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.
   
5. Discuss with your Webelos den leader the things that you need to take on a hike. Go on one 3-mile hike with your Webelos den or a Boy Scout troop.
   
6. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.
   
7. Demonstrate setting up a tent or dining fly using two half hitches and a taut-line hitch. Show how to tie a square knot and explain how it is used.
   
8. Visit a nearby Boy Scout camp with your Webelos den.
   

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

No camping at a particular event is required, and camping in a family campout counts, provided the boy helps pitch the tent.

However, I would not recommend crossover for this boy. He doesn't need to be a Boy Scout until he (and his parents) have the courage to send him on a campout out of his back yard.

 

Webelos shouldn't quite be boy led. Boys should have input, but a den leader needs to lead them. The boys need to be doing badges on their own as well. Three badges in a year is a little less ambitious than I would hope, but it's all they need for Webelos. They only have five more badges, including Readyman and Outdoorsman (and a mental skills and a technology and one other).

 

The problem is you want to mother them. They are going to be in a world of pain when they are in Boy Scouts. There is only going to be a SPL who will not be kind waking them up--teens aren't as gentle as wimpy parents. You need to get them to do things on their own, whenever possible, but with guidance. Again, that young Webelos needs to be much tougher if he wants to be a Boy Scout.\

 

Finally, Scouting is not meant to be efficient. It is meant to teach and enable boys to become leaders. The most efficient way to run a Boy Scout troop would be to have capable adults micromanage them. I can guarantee, any troop I ran would be much more efficient than the great majority of boy-led troops. Forget about this patrol cooking, we'd do troop cooking. Forget about tents, we'd be in hotel rooms. Etc. Scouting is meant to teach. Teaching is inefficient when it comes to the actual activity being taught. In the long run, though, it pays off.

[Stosh]

A boy that doesn't get an opportunity to spend time with the den outside of his backyard will probably not make it but 1 day at summer camp. The parent that doesn't go with the boy to these den outings to help with the bridging over will find his boy unable to do it on their own. It's unfortunate, but it is the parent's choice to have it happen this way. There's a time and place for every child to break away from mom and dad and scouting offers a safe and caring way of doing that. However, if the parents balk at it, this kid will be camping in his parent's back yard when he's 40 years old. Camping is more than tents and campfires, it's the opportunity to break away from the safe and secure and look for new adventures out there that mom and dad can't provide.

 

Stosh

[perdidochas]

So this boy likes to "camp" in the backyard, but is afraid to camp with family outside of the backyard? He needs to be toughened up majorly before Boy Scouts, and it's possible that he just needs another year. Ten may be too young for this boy to camp with other boys and gruff male Boy Scout Leaders. As a male Boy Scout Leader, my job isn't to baby the boys, but to make sure that they get back and forth from the campout safely, and don't hurt themselves or each other. I'm not going to tell a boy three times to get his socks on. I'm not going to cuddle him and sing "Soft kitty" to him.

[HappyHitchhiker]

While I agree that the boy is a "wimp" in most senses of the term, he is 9 years old at the moment. He has attended all outdoors activities the den offered and participated (he was one of the few able to start a fire with just his knife and magnesium) and is often the "checklist manager" for the boys (not to mention cook). His fellow scouts knows he just doesn't like to be away from home but he does his best to help others. There is also a big difference between 9 and 11 generally speaking. As a parent, I do not attend his outdoor activities because that is HIS time to grow and build self confidence in a safe environment. I am active in the den meetings and pack. He pitches his own tent, starts his own fire, cooks his own meals, and more when we camp in our yard. I do not know what the difference is to him where and who he is with (totally opposite of me at that age). As a parent, I want to see him accomplish his goals (which is to become a Boy Scout with his den) AND help him grow independent. I don't know if forcing him to go to the 7 day camp in order to earn his awards is the best move. I just don't understand why they cannot do this as a group in the den meetings.

[Torchwood]

So, there is some basic misunderstanding of the different programs, and how they should be managed. A Cub Scout Pack is run by the Den Leaders and Cubmaster. A Boy Scout Troop is led by the Senior Patrol Leader and the Patrol Leaders Council, with oversight by the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster(s). You can't (and shouldn't) run a Webelos Den like a Boy Scout Patrol. The boys just don't have the maturity to make the same types of decisions on their own. Even when they crossover to Boy Scouts, they will be under the watchful eye of a Troop Guide for the first few months- an older Scout who functions as their Patrol Leader until they either elect one of their peers, or are spread out through the rest of the existing Patrols (this varies by Troop).

 

All that being said, the Guide to Advancement is very specific about the requirements for any badge not being altered, added to or subtracted from. Telling a boy that he has to earn those Activity Badges at summer camp is adding to the requirements. If the Webelos Den Leader insist he is in the right, ask him to show you where it is written. Also ask him where it is written that he should be letting th boys run their Den as if it was a Patrol. The Webelos program, as written, is age appropriate for the boys in that Den. Period.

 

As for the boy, I agree with some of the previous posters that he is being held back by parental care. I wish I had some sage advice that didn't seem mean at face value. He needs to be pushed out of his comfort zone, and fast. The span from 9 to 11 goes really fast. And while we are on that specific topic, you are aware that a boy has to be 10 and have his Arrow of Light to crossover to Boy Scouts, right? If he is the youngest in the Den, he may not actually be able to crossover with his Den. The only thing I can think of is to find ways to boost his confidence among his peers so that he wants to go and do things with them. Maybe the Den Leader could use his expertise with firestarting and have him teach the other boys in the Den? Is the Den (and Pack) doing family camping trips? How about having him and a buddy camp in their own tent right next to the parent tents? Look for ways to slowly get him being independent before it is too late.

[koolaidman]

 

you are aware that a boy has to be 10.5 and have his Arrow of Light to crossover to Boy Scouts' date=' right?.[/quote']

He only has to be 10. Usually they are 10.5 or older, but they can be 10.

[perdidochas]

While I agree that the boy is a "wimp" in most senses of the term' date=' he is 9 years old at the moment. He has attended all outdoors activities the den offered and participated (he was one of the few able to start a fire with just his knife and magnesium) and is often the "checklist manager" for the boys (not to mention cook). His fellow scouts knows he just doesn't like to be away from home but he does his best to help others. There is also a big difference between 9 and 11 generally speaking. As a parent, I do not attend his outdoor activities because that is HIS time to grow and build self confidence in a safe environment. I am active in the den meetings and pack. He pitches his own tent, starts his own fire, cooks his own meals, and more when we camp in our yard. I do not know what the difference is to him where and who he is with (totally opposite of me at that age). As a parent, I want to see him accomplish his goals (which is to become a Boy Scout with his den) AND help him grow independent. I don't know if forcing him to go to the 7 day camp in order to earn his awards is the best move. I just don't understand why they cannot do this as a group in the den meetings.[/quote']

 

I agree with the 7 day camp thing as being an addition to requirements--no overnight is required for Outdoorsman or AOL--he can do the first two requirements of Outdoorsman (Present yourself ready to camp and attend an evening outdoor activity) . Aquanaut is not a required badge, so that's kind of a moot point. I honestly think he's too young to crossover with his den at age 9, maybe he will mature by December and his next birthday. I'm a Boy Scout leader, and have been for four years. I've seen four different groups of boys come into the troop, and am about to see a fifth group. You need to toughen him up to at least camp with family outside of the backyard. Scout leaders aren't Moms or Dads when we are at a scouting event. We are there for safety, but that's about it. The other side is that the boys who have been overly sheltered (whether by their own choice or their parents' choice) are miserable at Scout Campouts. They drop out a lot. I would rather see this boy wait and crossover later, than to crossover too young, and quit.

 

[Torchwood]

 

He only has to be 10. Usually they are 10.5 or older, but they can be 10.

 

Sorry- my mistake...

[Hueymungus]

Sorry. It's 10.5 with AOL. 11 without. It will mess-up the Council records when he goes for Eagle. He has to wait if he's 10 at Crossover.

[Torchwood]

Sorry. It's 10.5 with AOL. 11 without. It will mess-up the Council records when he goes for Eagle. He has to wait if he's 10 at Crossover.

 

yes, that was already mentioned... post has been edited.

[Torchwood]

Nope, Koolaidman is right. From Scouting.org: Boy Scouting, one of the traditional membership divisions of the BSA, is available to boys who have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10, or who are 11, but not yet 18 years old. The program achieves the BSA's objectives of developing character, citizenship, and personal fitness.

[The Blancmange]

The confusion comes when you drill down further into the AOL requirements:

 

"Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old)"

 

A boy can satisfy either of these to receive AOL, and if he happens to be young for his grade, can be younger than 10 1/2 at the time he meets the requirement.

[King Ding Dong]

My oldest would have been a few weeks shy of 10.5 with a February crossover. At he time he started K the cutoff was 5 by October 15th. NE has subsequently pushed it back to July like most. He will be 17 when he starts college. The school wants him to skip 7th grade math next year, not sure he needs that much pressure.

[AKdenldr]

HH,

 

If you carefully read the choices for the Outdoorsman's Webelos pin you will find that a scout can earn it without sleeping in a tent. (Some packs whose churches discourage sleeping away from family before 11 years old do the Outdoorsman as a day long event.)

 

Is it possible for your son to attend the day portions of resident camp as a day camper with his den? A scout can do this in our council cub camp. This would enable him to have many of the same experiences as the rest of the den. (More parental work with transportation but worth it.) He might even find that he is more comfortable as the week goes by and would like to try spending a night -- perhaps with parent's tent right beside.

 

I suspect that your Webelos den leaders realize that not much was accomplished in the last year and are looking for the resident camp to fill in the gap. This may contribute to their pushing attendance. I would advise you to become pretty well versed in the requirements of your son's book yourself.

 

I agree that a boy scout troop might be a shocker in half a year for your son. If he does bridge with his den (not necessary), be ready to be putting in some time in careful troop selection and participate in the troop as an active parent for some time.

 

Best of luck with this next year or so in scouting.

 

AK