Question about 1st Class/ 1st year

[Bob White]

Every volunteer signed an agreement to follow the program. Each year at the charter renewal the unit re-signs that agreement.

 

Whether you follow it blindly or with your eyes open is a personal choice, but we each promised to follow it.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Made me look. You really got me on that one. You must have a special "Bob White" version of the application.

 

 

[evmori]

Is the 1st Class Emphasis Program required? If so, then my bad. But unless things have changed, I don't think it is. Each Scout has the opportunity to learn and earn at his own pace. If a Scout reaches 1st Class in one year good for him.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup]

Ev asks this question " So we are to blindly follow a program the BSA says works but has no actual proof that it does work?"

 

It might be worth looking at how new BSA programs are developed. In most cases, a local council, or in some cases, an individual unit or person develops the program. It comes to the attention of the National Council, is judged reasonable, and is published for use in the field.

 

In some cases, National identifies a need and develops a program. This can be done by National pros, National volunteers or some combination.

 

As far as PROVING that something works, I know a bit about that because of my line of work. Actually proving something sociological like this statistically is difficult, expensive and lengthy. And other factors need to be removed from the testing like Hawthorne effect (the fact that the very involvement in the experiment tends to improve performance). And even if you have proven that it works statistically, that doesn't mean that volunteers will voluntarily choose to use it.

 

So rather, the BSA chooses to promote programs nationwide which seem reasonable. Normally, they have been shown to work in limited trials to make sure there are no obvious bugs (like a pioneering project in program helps a few years ago that would not hold together.) If Scout leaders like them and use them, they are used and continue. If not, they fall by the wayside and quietly die. There normally is a very limited number of promoted programs at any given time because there is only a certain amount of communication which can occur with leaders. And except for information in Boy's Life and in Scouting magazine and other literature, the local council is a gatekeeper and can decide that any new program won't be used in their area.

 

As far as First Class emphasis, when the revision of advancement requirements was done in the late 1980s, there were surveys of a number of success Troops and Scoutmasters about what they did. First Class emphasis was one item suggested. The New Boy Patrol was another. So these ideas were "proven" anecdotally but nothing like a serious double blind statistical study.

 

Do you HAVE to use them? No. You don't HAVE to use advancement, or camping or boy leadership. Those are strongly suggested program options, but there are Troops that don't use them. Very, very things are mandated and you have great freedom to create the unit that produces citizenship, character and fitness in the way that you most think is appropriate. There are some strongly recommended approaches, but you are the leader.

[Bob White]

"Is the First Class Emphasis Program required?"

 

What is required is that we provide a scouting program. We have some leaders who use the First Class Emphasis and New Scoout Patrol (they are inter-dependent) and some that don't. Why should it be used or not used is best determined by the results the two types of leadership have had.

 

As we know evmori has spoken strongly against the use of First Class Emphasis and avoids the New Scout Patrol structure recommended by the BSA. 18 months ago evmori posted he a had 18 scouts and even posted jis web-site. I looked at it recently. It was updated Dec. 5, 2003.

 

So evmori how well has your avoidance of the recommended program served the scouts in your community?

 

1)How many scouts have joined the troop in the last two years?

 

2)How many of them have you retained in the program?

 

3)What is their rank today?

 

You have challenged nearly every poster supporting the following of the BSA program with the defense of 'it is only a suggestion not a rule' and 'Am I supposed to follow blindly' so share with us the results of your scouting experience in leading a troop without using the recommended troop operation.

 

Bob White

 

[Bob White]

Evmori are you out there?

[Hunt]

It seems to me that the likely effectiveness of First Class First Year is based on a fairly obvious factor: boys are more likely to stay in troops that are active and go on a number of campouts, and if they can get the boys to participate in them. To make First Class you have to have ten non-meeting activities, including several campouts, hikes, cooking, orienteering, etc. All that stuff is fun. Isn't it that simple? If troops are doing all those activities, boys will probably stay in, even if they don't get their ranks. Troops that don't do the activities probably won't retain boys.

[Bob White]

Hunt,

You need to re-read the the Requirements for Tenderfoot to First Class. It does not take "a number of campouts, and if they can get the boys to participate in them."

 

It takes 3 nights of camping.

 

Bob White

[Bob White]

Hunt,

You need to re-read the the Requirements for Tenderfoot to First Class. It does not take "a number of campouts, and if they can get the boys to participate in them."

 

It takes 3 campouts. They can each be just one night out. In fact you can reach Life scout on just 3 nights of camping.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

Merry Christmas All

 

>>Isn't it that simple? If troops are doing all those activities, boys will probably stay in, even if they don't get their ranks. Troops that don't do the activities probably won't retain boys.

[Fat Old Guy]

*-*-*-*-* New Flash *-*-*-*-*

 

Heartland of America Three is not a number. Such a dramatic pronouncement has not been made in the world of mathematics since 1897 when the Indiana legislature redefined pi as 3.2. Evidently great mathematical minds are at work in the Midwest.

 

What new surprises will follow? Is the Earth flat? Does the Sun really set in the ocean? Only time will tell.

 

- 30 -

 

 

[evmori]

Been busy at my church Bob. I do have a life outside Scouting.

 

You asked me the same question in a PM awhile ago & I answered you there. Since you already know the answer I can only assume your reason for asking these questions is to belittle me. This seems to be your style. And you chastise me because I pick on you! Practice what you preach, Bob.

 

And by the way, you didn't answer my question "Is the 1st Class Emphasis Program required?" You spun it around to following the BSA program. And by your answer one can assume if you don't use every part of the BSA program, you aren't following the BSA program. One can follow a program & not use all the parts. So is it required or not? A simple yes or no will do.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Hunt]

Bob, you are technically correct, but I think most boys probably don't achieve all their Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class requirements in only three campouts. My point, though, is that if a troop is having enough campouts for boys to realistically hope to achieve First Class in one year, what they are really doing is having a fun-filled, active program. You don't think it's the rank, per se, that leads to retention, do you?

[Bob White]

No ed I am not out to belittle you. I am out to make a very powerful point about the use of the scouting program and the effect of the first Class Emphasis program and the New Scout Patrol.

"Is the 1st Class Emphasis Program required?"

No it's not, it is PROMISED to every boy in his Boy Scout Handbook and as leaders we have a RESPONSIBILITY to deliver on the promises made to the scouts.

 

One can follow the scouting program and not use all its parts, but the fewer you use the less results you will get.

 

You have been a vocal opponent of First Class Emphasis and the New Scout Patrol. I am saying show us the proof in the pudding. You don't use them, what are your results. It's a fair question.

 

DSteele can tell you that retention of scouts from the time they get the Arrow of Light to through the first year of Boy Scouts is a national problem in the BSA. Troops that use the First Class emphasis will tell you that they do not have problems with retention. Troops that do not use it will tell you that boys don't like scouting, there are to many extra curricuklar activities, parents don't support the scouting activities, kids have too much homework, yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

Ed I have been open about my support of these programs and the positive results I have gotten for 20-years. You have been adament about them not being "required" so you don't have to do them.

 

So Ed how is recruitment and retention in your troop where First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrol are not used. You've told posters the ineffectiveness of these programs, so now tell us the effectiveness of what your troop does instead.

 

1)How many scouts have joined in the last three years?

2) How many are still in the troop?

3) What are their ranks?

 

18 months ago you posted that your troop had 17 scouts and does just fine without First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrol, so how goes it now?

 

You bombard me with "show us" so I get the BSA reference for you. So now Ed "show us".

 

The biggest problem in unit commissioning is convincing leaders of problem units that they have a problem. The second biggest problem is convincing them that scouting has the answer.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[LauraT7]

Ed -

 

you may have answered Bob White's question elsewhere, but since i didn't see it, i AM interested. If you don't use FC emphasis and NSP's how has the history of your troop retention and advancements gone?

 

I ask because our troop has been through alot of changes - traditionally they did NOT follow alot of the BSA suggested programming, yet because they did do some great high adventure programs (Dads planning great trips and taking the boys along) they generally maintained troop numbers. If the boys were interested, and pursued it TOTALLY on their own - there were opportunities for advancement. But most scouts aged out at Star or life. very few Eagles. Many boys transferred INTO the troop after getting much of their advancement elsewhere - just for the trips. Very few Webelos transferred.

 

We have changed all that - and last year we flopped miserably at NSP. 100% the fault of the adults, though. hopefully, we will try again this spring with the new recruits.

 

however, I AM interested in what worked for YOU - not using the NSP - in case our troop decides to not do NSP again.

 

laura