Question about 1st Class/ 1st year

[mk9750]

Bob,

 

I have heard comments about FCFY helping retain Scouts before. I've also heard stats about the percentage of Scouts who go to summer camp their first year and what their retention rate is. I believe our Troop can lend credence to the ascertation that significantly more Scouts that go to summer camp their first year stay with the program.

 

But I don't know how to classify our Troop as to FCFY. The boys in my Troop make an annual plan that includes the opportunity for each boy to learn all of the skills required to make First Class in about 15 - 16 months. My first question is whether that qualifies as FCFY. Second, although I am very confident that our program provides this opportunity, the results from our Troop (in terms of actual advancement) are not as predictable as I think you lead people to believe they would be. Historically, we usually have 1 - 3 (out of n average class size of about 8) boys actually earn FC by the end of the 15 month program "year". Most get there in about 24 months, and it seems every class has one or two guys who take as many as 36 months.

 

At first, I suspected that this was caused by us not usually using the NSP method. However, even when we have (3 times in the last 8 years), the results seem to be about the same.

 

So does providing the opportunity qualify as FCFY, or do the majority of the Scouts need to be successful at FCFY?

 

At the risk of speaking for Hunt, I think you might have misinterpreted his comments. You're right that it only requires three campouts, but I thought he was referencing the requirment to attend 10 Troop / Patrol events. In either case, I think his point was very valid: A FCFY emphisis is likely to cause a more interesting program with fun events.

 

Mark

[Bob White]

First a quick terminology check. First Class First Year is an award certificate available for scouts who accomplish that rank advancement.

 

First Class Emphasis is a program structure that makes earning First Class in the First 12 to 14 months possible.

 

These two terms are often intertwined. I am as guilty of it as anyone.

 

As I understood Hunt's post it sugested that those 10 events were campouts. That is not the case. Hikes, Good Turn projects, day events, all count in the 10 activities as well as campouts.

 

As important if not more important is the program delivered at Troop meetings each week. That is where the bulk of scouting happens.

[Bob White]

First a quick terminology check. First Class First Year is an award certificate available for scouts who accomplish that rank advancement.

 

First Class Emphasis is a program structure that makes earning First Class in the First 12 to 14 months possible.

 

These two terms are often intertwined. I am as guilty of it as anyone.

 

As I understood Hunt's post it sugested that those 10 events were campouts. That is not the case. Hikes, Good Turn projects, day events, all count in the 10 activities as well as campouts.

 

As important if not more important is the program delivered at Troop meetings each week. That is where the bulk of scouting happens.

[Hunt]

Let's assume that troops that use FCFY experience a higher retention rate than the average troop. I see several possible reasons for this:

 

1. The most likely reason is that these troops schedule plenty of fun activities like campouts, hikes, orienteering, etc. The FCFY program spurs them on to do this because boys need these opportunities in order to make their advancements. But it's the activities that generate the retention.

2. A second possibility is that the program generates an advancement mind-set--that once boys have put in the work to get First Class, they are more likely to want to go all the way and get higher ranks. I find this less likely, and somewhat less palatable.

3. Finally, it may be that troops who pay attention to their program and really try to make it work get more retention than troops who just let things flow along as they've always done. They're just better troops, and thus get more retention. It's not the particular program that works, but the fact they have ANY coherent program.

[Bob White]

Again FCFY (First Class First Year) is an Award. First Class Emphasis is a program structure.

 

Hunt writes "1. The most likely reason is that these troops schedule plenty of fun activities like campouts, hikes, orienteering, etc. The FCFY program spurs them on to do this because boys need these opportunities in order to make their advancements. But it's the activities that generate the retention."

 

He is partially correct. First Class Emphasis causes the Adult Leader, Specifically the Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols. To plan the 1)troop meeting activities that allow the scout to learn and practice scout skills, and 2)the outdoor events that allow the need to apply the skill so that the scout, through their activity, meets the requirements to advance.

 

Yes, it is the degree of activity that keeps the scout participating and attending.

 

 

Next he writes "2. A second possibility is that the program generates an advancement mind-set--that once boys have put in the work to get First Class, they are more likely to want to go all the way and get higher ranks. I find this less likely, and somewhat less palatable."

 

Not necessarily, this can happen, but only if the leader takes that attitude and develops it in the scout. It is not a feature or a recommendation of the First Class Emphasis program. It would be a misapplication of the program on the part of the leader.

 

Finally "3. Finally, it may be that troops who pay attention to their program and really try to make it work get more retention than troops who just let things flow along as they've always done. They're just better troops, and thus get more retention. It's not the particular program that works, but the fact they have ANY coherent program."

 

He was right on the money until his last sentence. it works not because the troop has ANY coherent program, but because it has a SCOUTING program. Its what makes the BSA the BSA. Its the scouting program that makes it work not just A program, and it includes First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrols.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

LauraT7,

My Troop has never been larger than 15 Scouts and we have never had more than 3-4 new Scouts peryear. This is the main reason we don't use the NSP. We do have an active program. We meet weekly & camp monthly sometimes more. We also have other outings and some with other Troops in the area. We provide each Scout wit the opportunity to advance at their own rate. If they make 1st Class in 12 to 14 months, great!

 

There are 16 Troops in my district. All are within 10 miles of us. That's alot. We recruit form our CO, local Packs & school district. There are three Troops recruiting from the same school district. Our feeder Pack (Pack 1) recruits from the same school as another pack. Things get very territorial around here.

 

I hope this answers your questions.

 

Ed Mori

A blessed Christmas to all!

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

"My Troop has never been larger than 15 Scouts and we have never had more than 3-4 new Scouts peryear."

 

Really Ed? because in march of 2002 you posted that you had 17 scouts and three patrols.

 

 

And here again

 

 

And now your updated website says you have 7 Scouts and 1 patrol.

 

"and we have never had more than 3-4 new Scouts peryear."

Then you should have had 9 to 12 new scouts in the last three years and you now have only 3 remaining.

 

 

 

Somewhere things have gone very wrong.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Oops. I was wrong. 17 max. And I should have stated "3-4 in a year"

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Its what makes the BSA the BSA. Its the scouting program that makes it work not just A program, and it includes First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrols.

[Bob White]

Barry I do not disagree that the 8 methods and 3 aims are the heart of scouting. But New Scout Patrol is a part of the Patrol method, First Class Emphasis is a part of the Advancement Method, It says so in the BSA reources and leader training.

 

Sure there are all different flavors of doing it but NOT doing it is not one of those flavors.

 

If it works don't fix it. But when a troop goes from 17 to 7, retains no better than 33% of new scouts and has only one advancement in 18 months it is time to admit that things are not working.

 

Why would a trained leader not use EVERY scouting resouce available to salvage that troop?

 

I'm not picking on Ed I am trying to make a point that the methods of scouting are important, and that to deny the effectiveness of a program you refuse to use even when what you are doing is not working is unfair to the scouts you are supposed to be serving.

 

I ahve never seen a troop that has a scouting program fail. I have however seen troops with no program fail and troops with a program that isn't a scouting program fail.

 

How do you know when you have a scouting program? When meetings are based on learning and practicing skills and activities are based on applying those skills so that a scout advances as he participates.

 

Bob White

 

[Eagledad]

>>How do you know when you have a scouting program? When meetings are based on learning and practicing skills and activities are based on applying those skills so that a scout advances as he participates.

[Bob White]

"Can you describe a program like that without mentioning first class in one year?

 

No, I can't. Can you describe the game of baseball without mentioning running the bases?

 

What I described was both the New Scout Patrol program as well as the monthly theme program for regular patrols and venture patrols. We spend hours teaching this in BSA leadership training and have a large SM Handbook, 3 Program Feature books and a Troop Program Resource book to explain and support it. I really cannot do it justice in a post.

 

Bob White

[mk9750]

Bob,

 

I asked a question about how we can classify our Troop concerning FCFY, and although I appreciate the gentle correction you made as to terminology, I really didn't see (or maybe I didn't understand) and answer.

 

Then Eagledad makes a point that was pretty much what I was trying to say. I believe our program is designed in such a way that a Scout has the opportunity to earn First Class in about 15 months if he particpates. we don't call it First Class Emphasis, we just call it our annual program. But although the opportunity is there, only some Scouts take take the initiative and advance. My question was whether we satisfy the intent of the elelments of First Class Emphasis.

 

If we do, I think all some of us are arguing over is semantics. It sounds to me like Eagledad and I have the First Class Emphasis, we just don't call it that. However, if success in getting boys to First Class in a year or so is required to say we utilize that program feature, then a guess I'll have to say we don't.

 

If success is required, we could make this happen. But in my experience (and it is limited to only one Troop), the only way to do so is to force boys to advance. I know you would never advocate that, and I'd rather quit than do so.

 

Provide the opportunity? You bet! Make it happen? Never!

 

Mark

 

 

[evmori]

So a Scout can earn the First Class/First Year award whether his Troop uses the 1st Class Emphasis program or not!

 

It seems the 1st Class Emphasis Program is nothing more than another way to helps Troops have an active program.

 

Ed Mori

A blessed Christmas to all!

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

That's exactly right Ed, "1st Class Emphasis Program is nothing more than another way to helps Troops have an active program", and the U.S. Constitution is just a way to run a country, and Bill Gates is just a guy who plays with computers.

 

Actually, 1st Class Emphasis Program is The most effective way to help Troops have an active SCOUTING program.

 

Lots of folks wear a scout unform and have an active program, it just isn't a scouting program.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)