Poor Example from an Eagle

[JoeBob]

At a recent troop meeting a 14 year-old Eagle said to a 13 year-old Tenderfoot: "You've never advanced, and you're never going to advance for the rest of your life."

Not very Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, or Kind.

 

As SM, how would you respond?

 

The 14yo has a history of putting others down to pump himself up. He made Eagle because he barely squeaked by meeting the legal definitions of the requirements. He is self-centered and only notices other people when they get in his way. SM conversations suggesting areas and methods for improvement have yielded no observable long-term improvements.

How do I reach him?

 

His statements were cruel mental bullying. I expect a better example from the Eagles in my troop.

 

Other than the obvious re-start on scout spirit for his first palm, what actions can you suggest that I and the troop take to modify his behavior?

[fred johnson]

IMHO, the whole purpose of scouting is to teach character, responsibility, citizenship, etc. It's not just limited to advancement, SM conferences or BORs. If a scout treats another poorly, deal with it and immediately. In our troop, it's handled through either casual or more structured conversations. And it's often handled with questions. What did you say? How do you think that made him feel? How would you feel if someone said it to you? What purpose was there to saying that? What was the result?

 

Our job is to make sure these things get dealt with in a timely way either by ourselves, our fellow leaders or by the youth leaders.

 

for this situation, I'd look to strike up a casual conversation and let him know you heard what he said and ask him why he doesn't think the other scout will advance. And then lead into the other questions and ultimately about how we treat other people.

 

And ... hopefully I do it with a smile on my face and in such a way that he's thinking more about what he did and said than about what I said and whether I'm upset with him.

 

Peter

[Torchwood]

SM Conferences can be called at any time. I would make sure this happens sooner rather than later. And this behavior should not be tolerated in any Scout- Eagle or otherwise. The fact that his attitude, which isn't a new issue, didn't keep him from advancing to Eagle in the first place makes we wonder about the earlier SM Conferences and BOR processes in your Troop.

[qwazse]

It would amuse me to no end if the Tenderfoot advances, and at his ECoH gives this kid a mentor pin.

 

That is the "quick to judge" age. I've heard similar things from same-aged mouths. It sounds like you think this Eagle doesn't care if his buddy doesn't advance. If so, a negative, but unelaborate, unemotional evaluation is in order. Then explain that his palm SMC is pushed back a month in hopes that you'll have seen more affirmative leadership behavior between now and then.

 

If your not entirely sure about that, ask point-blank "Do you care if your buddy doesn't advance?" If no, then apply the above, maybe with a warning that not caring could lead to grounds for suspension. Otherwise, ask him if he thinks there are other boys in the troop whom you two should be worrying about. Ask him for some better ways to convey "our" pessimism and concern. In other words, force him to act like a JASM on what he said. Tell him you'll follow-up in a few weeks if he still thinks his buddy's not engaging the advancement program like he should. He may watch what he says more closely if each of his clever remarks gets him suckered into a 15 minute strategy session.

[MattR]

I think you're getting to the heart of motivation. He won't change until he wants to change. And he won't want to change until he sees that he's made a mistake and that someone would like to help him. Just guessing but he's 14 and Eagle so either mom and dad are doing all the work or he's a very bright but self centered kid. Anyway, I'd start with a SMC. Ask him what an Eagle scout is and does. Write it down. Ask for details. He may need some coaching to get it out but write down his words. Next, review the incident. Ask for details. Compare what he said in general to what he did in this specific case. The goal is to find out if he see's whether he made a mistake. If so, you're most of the way there. Ask him how he can atone for his mistakes. If he's willing to try then you'll end up with a great kid. If he doesn't see the mistake, well, before you reach him you have to get his attention. That usually involves something like a 2x4 with a nail in the end of it. I'd withhold any palms until he can prove he can walk the walk. I wouldn't go into details of what that means because he obviously knows how to do the minimum amount of work. Tell him when he gets frustrated he can ask for a SMC and you're more than willing to talk. And if he wants to talk bring out what you wrote and just go over it again. If it takes a year that's ok. It will give him some time to mature.

[perdidochas]

I think it would be time to harshly reprimand him (in private) about the situation. I also think it should be time for his parents to be involved. I would remind him of the Eagle Charge and Challenge, both of which he clearly failed. I would probably tell him that if I heard anything else remotely unkind, uncourteous, unfriendly or uncheerful like that, I would kick him out of the troop. I would suggest that he work with that Tenderfoot, but I wouldn't curse the Tenderfoot with that.

[Sentinel947]

I think it would be time to harshly reprimand him (in private) about the situation. I also think it should be time for his parents to be involved. I would remind him of the Eagle Charge and Challenge, both of which he clearly failed. I would probably tell him that if I heard anything else remotely unkind, uncourteous, unfriendly or uncheerful like that, I would kick him out of the troop. I would suggest that he work with that Tenderfoot, but I wouldn't curse the Tenderfoot with that.

I don't believe in fighting fire with fire.

[JoeBob]

SM Conferences can be called at any time. I would make sure this happens sooner rather than later. And this behavior should not be tolerated in any Scout- Eagle or otherwise. The fact that his attitude, which isn't a new issue, didn't keep him from advancing to Eagle in the first place makes we wonder about the earlier SM Conferences and BOR processes in your Troop.

Torchwood: He manipulates boys and adults well. And to the letter of the law, he met the requirements. We slowed him down with Scout spirit, but we could not say no.

 

Barely.

[JoeBob]

It would amuse me to no end if the Tenderfoot advances, and at his ECoH gives this kid a mentor pin.

 

That is the "quick to judge" age. I've heard similar things from same-aged mouths. It sounds like you think this Eagle doesn't care if his buddy doesn't advance. If so, a negative, but unelaborate, unemotional evaluation is in order. Then explain that his palm SMC is pushed back a month in hopes that you'll have seen more affirmative leadership behavior between now and then.

 

If your not entirely sure about that, ask point-blank "Do you care if your buddy doesn't advance?" If no, then apply the above, maybe with a warning that not caring could lead to grounds for suspension. Otherwise, ask him if he thinks there are other boys in the troop whom you two should be worrying about. Ask him for some better ways to convey "our" pessimism and concern. In other words, force him to act like a JASM on what he said. Tell him you'll follow-up in a few weeks if he still thinks his buddy's not engaging the advancement program like he should. He may watch what he says more closely if each of his clever remarks gets him suckered into a 15 minute strategy session.

This boy does not care about others. "If Tenderfoot doesn't care enough to work on his advancement, why should I care?" And in truth, Tenderfoot has not put forward a lot of effort. But that does not give Eagle the right to be condescending and cruel.

[JoeBob]

I think you're getting to the heart of motivation. He won't change until he wants to change. And he won't want to change until he sees that he's made a mistake and that someone would like to help him. Just guessing but he's 14 and Eagle so either mom and dad are doing all the work or he's a very bright but self centered kid. Anyway, I'd start with a SMC. Ask him what an Eagle scout is and does. Write it down. Ask for details. He may need some coaching to get it out but write down his words. Next, review the incident. Ask for details. Compare what he said in general to what he did in this specific case. The goal is to find out if he see's whether he made a mistake. If so, you're most of the way there. Ask him how he can atone for his mistakes. If he's willing to try then you'll end up with a great kid. If he doesn't see the mistake, well, before you reach him you have to get his attention. That usually involves something like a 2x4 with a nail in the end of it. I'd withhold any palms until he can prove he can walk the walk. I wouldn't go into details of what that means because he obviously knows how to do the minimum amount of work. Tell him when he gets frustrated he can ask for a SMC and you're more than willing to talk. And if he wants to talk bring out what you wrote and just go over it again. If it takes a year that's ok. It will give him some time to mature.

MattR: I'm pretty close to the 2x4 stage with this boy. In conversation, he'll say the right things. He'll write down the correct goals. But he does not live up to his words.

About half the troop can't stand to be around him; and the other half continue to fall for his manipulations. Most of the adults will negotiate with him and give in to the bare minimums just to get him to go away. I'm not going to list details online for privacy concerns. He is a very smart kid.

But you've given me a framework that I think I can work within. "If I hear anything else bad, we'll start 3 months of Scout Spirit over again."

[JoeBob]

Thank you all for your input. This is a touchy one.

 

I'll check back in a few days.

 

Thank you.

[IM_Kathy]

one of the best scouts I've had privilege to work with ended his scouting as a tenderfoot. He had no interest in rank. Had he, he would've at least been a star scout as I know he had enough mb's for it but not sure his total count. He just did what he liked to do. He helped all the scouts. He still comes and helps out now when it fits into his college/work life. So I'd be having a serious talk about what a patch really means - to me it just means boy did a,b,c and got it signed. What it doesn't say is the true character of a person. And I'd explain how people see a patch and expect certain behavior and if they don't live up to that then maybe they need to take the patch off.

[MattR]

JoeBob, you reminded me of something else. Namely, get someone else to swing the 2x4, preferably the PLC. I'm guessing that having your peers tell you to straighten up is a much stronger message than having an adult tell you.

[JoeBob]

MattR, using the PLC to administer penalties would be our first choice. But the victim wants it to go away. If we share with any of the boys what we're doing to correct the behavior and why, the whole troop will know in about 10 minutes. I'm concerned that that would make it more difficult for the victim. (We have verified the event from 3 sources.)

My SM minute last week was about rough-housing turning into physical bullying. This week I'll talk about verbal/mental abuse. But I think that we need to respect the victim's desire to not be fingered as a 'rat'.

Verbal abuse leaves no visible marks. It's going to be hard to monitor.

Any suggestions on how to teach a 'change of heart'?

[Engineer61]

To bad you can't revoke rank. Because that is probably the only solution that will work.

 

My guess is that this kid can't be turned around without a serious butt-kicking from another scout, I would start recruiting the biggest kids you can find to offset this bully.

 

The Eagle rank appears to have validated his superiority complex....so he's gonna pummel every kid he can with it.

 

Probably could be a troop killer, given enough time and exposure.