Sex and Scouting

[Fuzzy Bear]

Over the years I have witnessed many different behaviors related to sexual growth of boys. I know that they are attempting to understand life because they are at the beginning and attempting to learn about an issue that is very difficult. People use trial and error in the face of a problem that has few answers and so do boys. Our discomfort is usually about not being able to communicate simple answers in light of so many

complexities. A Scout is Kind and so should we be toward those that are attempting to learn the foundational skills of life. I do not pretend to know the answers because there are so many but I do know that the Scout Oath and Law directs us in our efforts. We are adults and we can rely on all of our resources when the problem seems too great for the present answers that seem so meager.

[NWScouter]

I think the other way a Scoutmaster can set the example is by his behavior. Im not talking about if he is straight or gay but how he treats and almost more how he talks about people in sexual roles. If he makes sexist and lewd remarks about people, if he lets the Scouts make jokes about sexual matters or allows them to make comments about the attributes of females, he is doing them a disfavor.

[KoreaScouter]

Regarding Ethics in Action, I'm familiar with the "canned vignettes". There's another BSA pub "Youth's Frontier; Making Ethical Decisions", that's referenced in the SM Handbook edition I like to tote (the smaller one, easier to carry). My SM handbok recommends discussing ethics with Scouts at their Tenderfoot SM Conference, and I do. However, I believe a more effective way to work ethics into the program is to recognize and take advantage of the teaching moments when they come up, regardless of the primary topic.

 

When you think about it, ethics, if you use the "code of values" definition, should already be interwoven with the program; we shouldn't have to concoct opportunities to work it in.

 

KS

[ozemu]

Respect.

 

What ever they chose to do they should treat their partner with respect.

 

There is also responsibility but that conotates, to many, that they have to do the right thing should someone become pregnant. Obviously it should start earlier with the decision to do the wild thing in the first place and then to limit unwanted consequences (disease and pregnancy I suppose). These things they should know from school sex ed etc.

 

But respect is the thing that many young men seem to have no concept of. If they are looking at a playboy magazine etc they should do so with respect. As if the woman is there in front of them. If they would not say / do some things if she were having the photo taken right there in front of them then they should not say / do these things with just the magazine in the lap. Personally I think that that is raising the bar to a point where they will all fail at least a few times. However when their mates are around looking with them the language should still be respectful - that is achievable and sets the tone for in the flesh encounters (I hope).

 

I have, at work, done this type of talk a few times and first saw it done by a more experienced peer. It was straight forward, no giggling, no veiled speech just straight out - look, enjoy and do so with respect. One boy had been getting teased because it was his magazine that had been confiscated. The whole bus listened to a casual conversation and given the absence of other discussion for a few minutes it seemed to have a real effect. He is an outdoor educator for a christian school - I am freelance but I still think it was a good example of how to address Eamons question.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Now I have to have the talk with my intellectually moderate foster boy who is 16 and hiding a penthouse in his room as we type. Just waiting for the dust to settle from the last thing that unsettled him but within the next fortnight will be the time.

 

The info provided by the Disabilities unit starts with nuts and bolts stuff with drawings. It include a series of sketches that show a young man masturbating. The main point was it is okay, it should be in private and that you must clean up after yourself. As for other stuff it sums up with comments that sex chould not hurt anyone and the man should wear a condom for health and pregnancy issues.

 

As it is for disabilities people there is no attempt to moralise. It just describes the different methods of haveing sex (all of them) but simply as I suppose they will figure out the fine detail themselves.

 

Without the moralising it is pretty straight forward really. The moralising I would leave to the parents and preists but many young people don have reliable sources there so you must do what you chose to do.

[KoreaScouter]

Sorry, but I don't buy that. If you want to teach boys to have respect for women, insist that they practice with real women who are already in their lives, starting with their mothers, their sisters, their classmates. Accept no disrespect or shabby treatment in these critical early relationships, model respect as a father/adult when dealing with your wife and daughter(s), and it should rub off on your son or the boys you're associated with. Using porn as a substitute, even soft porn, is not something I'd ever do.

 

My experience is somewhat jaded I guess, from years of wearing a badge. Not everyone who subscribes to or buys porn is a pervert, but every pervert I've apprehended seemed to have a houseful of it -- go figure.

 

KS

[Eagledad]

Well said KS.

 

Barry

[LauraT7]

A tough topic.

 

When I first started in BOY Scouting, one of the longtime male leaders and I discussed this on a trip (no boys in the car, I was pulling the trailer and he was my navigator - along for company) He had been uncomfortable with the YP tapes we had shown recently and his take on it was to avoid any discussion at all. He has no kids and has not had to face

'the discussion' himself, either personally or with someone else's kids.

 

He asked me if, as a woman, didn't I feel uncomfortable discussing sexual responsibility, relationships, abuse, etc around teenage boys and wasn't it better to leave that to their Fathers and Mothers?

 

I agreed - IF the boys felt able to talk to their parents. It is a sad fact that often, kids DON'T have a secure enough relationship with a parent to open such a discussion. Lot's of kids don't feel comfortable talking to a parent about anything - much less sex!

 

But YP isn't just about Sexual Abuse and sexual behavior - it's about ANY kind of abuse, any kind of difficult situation where a child might need the help and support of an understanding adult. it takes many OTHER steps of neglect and abuse, breaks of trust, to get to a point where a child can be sexually abused.

 

There is alot of talk about children's rights. In our legal system today, on a individual, personal level, 'childrens rights' is bunk. Children are treated by the legal system much like pets. Only when irreversable damage is already done, does the law step in and protect them. parents have more 'rights' than a child, and parents are often the abusers or allow the abuse to happen.

 

I pointed out - that as a single parent of a child who has been abused by the other parent - I have had to face some pretty tough situations and frank discussions with my son from the time he was a toddler. I have had to fight for him legally, and deal with the outcome when the courts did NOT protect him adequately. the most important thing in protecting my child has come from keeping a trustworthy line of communication open with him. He can, and does, talk to me about anything.

 

When it comes to my son, it IS my job to support him, educate him and teach him a value system that will serve him for life. He also knows how to protect and defend himself, if necessary, and he knows that i will ALWAYS be there for him. It is surprising to me how many children DON'T feel they have that unwaivering support of their families.

 

When it comes to the boys in my troop - It is not my job to educate them beyond what their parents have authorized. My behavior, and the relationship I have with my son, and the relationships I build with the boys and adults in the troop provide an example that teaches better than any lecture or movie. It is my job to provide encouragement, support, trust, an open mind and a non-judgemental attitude so that should a boy find himself needing an adult, he knows that he can depend on me - that he can TRUST me.

 

In our troop - we had a hazing issue come up at summer camp. In hindsight, it was not that serious an issue and caused no permanent damage. In fact, the discussions and intense YP training that came in it's wake had a hugely POSITIVE effect on our troop. We now have a zero tolerance policy for teasing, name calling and belittling. In or outside of the troop. Our boys feel truly SAFE with anyone in our troop. When the innuendo/ jokes start - as they inevitably do with the older boys, they are much more likely to keep it among the older boys and away from the 5th and 6th graders. I find that the boys, in general are much more open and relate to the other troop members, (boys AND adults) as a large family - in our various schools, churches, and other activities, I see our troops boys hang out together and support each other more than ever before.

 

BSA does not encourage us to discuss sexual issues or beliefs with the boys in our care. However, BSA does want us to be role models, mentors,and guides for them. Providing a secure and open environment for communication is the best way to prevent danger and promote good decisions, sexual or otherwise.

 

[ozemu]

Fair enough KS.

 

As a parent I am more rigid than I am as an SM. Any porn in my family would break me up quite a bit.

 

Outside my family I can only force the law and parents stated or reasonably infered wishes.

 

My foster son is 16. The penthouse is to be supplied to 18s and older. Guess who will be returning the magazine soon. However he is unable to rationalise as you and I and I am taking my time. (I do not want a relapse into the aggression displayed when his bio dad threw out his illegal flick knife two weeks ago)

 

The porn that I confiscated was not returned in the school group. The advice my peer gave was intended to apply when he next got hold of some porn. I am supposing that he and some of his mates will do so. They were decidely not Scouts.

 

Anyway I am not fixated on the dirty pictures. The intent is more important. Respect should be pushed as it can apply when people chose not to be responsible. I think.

 

Heres the crunch - I would not be outraged to find some porn in camp. It would allow for some very good and worthwhile discussions within the Troop. I would see it as an opportunity rather than as an outrage. I would inform the parents after the camp of course.

 

It was a different matter among my soldiers as I had very little chance of influencing their morale development. At the Scout age there is a chance that a frank and ernest discussion will help indeffinately. Whatever raises the issue is already done. (Pregnancy or porn). What we do with that is to me the important Scouting issue.

 

Not sure if that brings us more into line. Regardless I respect your views and do not intend any criticism.

[KoreaScouter]

Sure, and there are different cultural standards, too. I've lived in the Netherlands, which is a lot less inhibited and more "anything goes" than anywhere else I've lived. Korea was a different matter, other end of the scale.

 

By the time they're in their early 20's, their values and standards are formed -- you're not going to change them at that point. Hopefully, we'll influence them while they're in their formative years...their Scouting years.

 

Will teenage boys be curious about these things and sneak peeks at them if they have a chance? Sure, I think we all did, or would have if we could have. But, importantly, at least in my case, there was a burden of guilt or shame that went along with it that, for the most part, kept my friends and I away from that stuff, even into our adult years. And, in my adult years, I understand why those social norms and stigmas were there. I think in part they were meant to encourage more wholesome approaches toward social relationships with the opposite sex, and help ensure we were grounded in reality vs. fantasy. That stigma's largely eroded in our country, and you can see the results.

 

I can't think of a single redeeming value from condoning this with adolescent boys. I think it sets a dysfunctional pattern in motion that will repeat in more destructive ways as they get older. BTW, I also don't buy into the argument that porn is an outlet or "release valve" that prevents illegal or immoral behavior. If that were true, then why does everybody guilty of child sex abuse have kiddie porn at the house, on his computer, etc?

 

KS

[Laurie]

Eamonn said: "Most of what I have heard is stuff that I wasn't supposed to. Am I happy taking no notice? No not really."

 

I wonder if this is something that would be appropriate to address with a SM minute? Maybe ask the SPL and PLs if they are concerned about topics of conversation or feel that the troop is ok in that area. I'm not sure if this appropriate, because I've much to learn about the mechanics of a troop. However, there must be a way to address topics of conversation without pointing a finger at one boy. Also, what about other leaders? Could they address this if more comfortable with doing so than you? It would be honest and fair to address a group or individual in this manner, "I am not comfortable talking about this, but I am not comfortable ignoring what I overhear either", and then briefly addressing the issues you hear about and encouraging the Scouts to reconsider their Scout Oath and Law and Promise. Does their topic of conversation fit into this? If not, maybe they should reconsider it. If I am way out of line here, please correct me. I am actually the opposite of Eamonnn. When I hear something inappropriate, I often have to reign myself in--for I immediately want to tackle the issue However, bit by bit, at the Cub level, I have been encouraging the den leaders to encourage their dens to think about what is right--in action, in speech, in what they expose themselves to (cable TV offers a tempting variety of stuff to all, especially the young and impressionable). Doing this leads so some exciting things--like a foul-mouthed child who begins to catch and correct his own language. Like a boy prone to bully who reaches a hand out and then stops himself--or another boy reminds him it is wrong and stops him.

 

KS, thank you for saying so well about porn what I thought but could not put into words myself. There is not, IMO, anything redeeming about it. As a former counselor, I learned that many relationships have their root problems in porn of some type.

 

Thank you all for a thought-provoking discussion that could have been awkward and heated but has remained helpful and civil.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Eamonn]

Ozemu,

I have to admit to finding some of the stuff that you have posted a little - Shall we say "Near the mark?" Please don't think that I am in anyway putting you or your postings down. In fact I have a very good friend who is a GSL (Group Scout Leader) In London who tells it as it is - Just as you have.

I have to admit that while I never bought a copy of any porn mag. The English newspapers (It used to be the Sun on page 3) Had a topless "Babe?" every day. And while I never liked the paper I did every now and then have a look.

I really like the way you reminded me about Respect. In fact I don't know why it didn't hit me sooner. Back when I was a Scout in the UK. The seventh Scout Law: A Scout has respect for himself and for others.

I think that they have made a slight change to the wording. Still at the end of the day maybe the big thing is not sex, maybe it is just respect. Respect for everyone. While I may not be at ease talking about sex. I don't have a problem with respect. This would include the male, female and the unborn. Then there is honor. Maybe we need to spend a little more time looking at what "On my honor" really does mean?

Eamonn

[Davej775]

This is an interesting thread and after reading all that's here I can't find any iron clad guarentee that any discussion by a Scout leader with a group of Scouts won't lead, possibly, to some charge of inpropriety by a parent somewhere, or a Scout being withdrawn from the troop by a parent. If you got written permission from most of the parents to discuss sex, what do you do with the Scouts without that permission slip? Now, how do they feel being excluded?

I haven't seen the merit badgebook recently, but I don't recall any merit badge for sex education.

This would be the path to take for this subject.

 

A Scout is Trustworty, Courtious, and Brave. This ought to cover dealing with the opposite sex. I put Brave as it takes this quality to stand up to inclinations like hormones screaming for passion when the opportunity and ability to indulge in sex are present.

Unless I was a licensed therapist, and I'm not, I would redirect all those questions back to the parents and their religious leaders.

I wish we could handle this subject with as much security and directness as we handle the knowledge of Knots and tying them.

All knotted up over this I remain....Dave J!

[Laurie]

DaveJ, knots really are so much easier and so much more fun to discuss I personally like the Totin' Chip and Fireman Chit. No formal sex ed it allowed in the Scouting program, so I'm not sure what the permission slip would be for. If a SM or adult leader were to stick with what is in the Scout Handbook (which does address sex), then it would seem the parents have already given permission for that much of a talk. They signed the application for the program, and the program includes those two distinctly uncomfortable pages. All that said, everyone seems in agreement to keep parents involved, not to try to take their place. The sad fact (it's sad to me anyway) is that these days sex is a topic of discussion--and more--at a very early age. To ignore it doesn't do justice to the boys. The BSA felt it was important enough to address, so it does have a place in the program. I like Eamonn's approach to this in his most recent post: it's not sex that's so big an issue as it the teaching of respect and honor before ever needing to discuss sex itself. Now those two thought--they are what I always have thought of in connection with Scouting.

 

You bring up a good point about inpropriety though. The thing is that I know of that type of problem with language, bullying, etc. and how those issues get handled. None of this easy, but we must all agree it's worth it anyway--because here we are.

 

By the way, your name is new to me, so welcome to the forums!(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Proud Eagle]

I am going to have to make an objection. I don't have a problem with Scouts discussing sex. There are certain ways of discussing it, and certain sub topics, that I would object to, but the subject of sex is not banned for discussion. If I overhear Scouts discussing something relating to sex I would not necessarily intervent. However, if it is degrading some group of people, or promoting risky, unhealthy, or immoral behaviour, then I would intervene. Though suggesting that sex is not the best topic of conversation would be appropriate, it would be most inappropriate to tell the Scouts to never discuss sex. To put it another way it is not the topic of conversation that bothers me, but rather some of the potential content that does. In the same way talking about guns doesn't bother me, but obviously that could take a wrong turn and go down a road I wouldn't want it to. (Going from discussing the mechanical working of a gun, or proper safety procedures, to the best way to shoot someone would be an example.)

 

Besides, I don't think we can keep boys from discussing sex in some ways. We also can't keep them from discussing girls. Though we must make certain discussions of those topics that take place during Scouting functions are appropriate, respectful, and in keeping with the Oath and Law.

[NeilLup]

Dave, Laurie and other posters make some very good points. But here may be an interesting exercise to put us in the point of view of "them" rather than "us"

 

Imagine, for a moment, that you have been appointed to the BSA National Sex Education Task Force. Your mission and that of your group is to write a sex education training for all members of the BSA. But, here are some of your ground rules

 

1) It must be acceptable to ALL chartered partners within the BSA ranging from some very conservative churches to some secular groups to some rather liberal churches and other groups

2) It must be comfortable for the leaders, otherwise, they won't do it as they are volunteers

3) It must be acceptable to a very large fraction of parents of Scouts and unacceptable only to individuals who would be considered a radical fringe

4) It must survive scrutiny and publicity by the press including individuals who want to do their best to make the BSA look bad

5) There won't be much money for surveys, consultants, etc.

 

Think for a couple of minutes about that challenge and you'll see why the BSA ended up where it did. Sex and sex education is such a highly charged topic in the US and there is such a diversity of opinion that anything the BSA would say would either be Pablum or else would run afoul of some significant group within the BSA. Even stating that Scout leaders can discuss matters with Scouts can run afoul of some parents who think that they and only they are the ones who can give information to their children, particularly on sex.

 

It's different even in the Girl Scouts where churches, etc. have an advisory role but basically, GSUSA owns its units. But in the BSA, the units are OWNED by the sponsors. The sponsors are considered by the BSA to its customers.

 

So this is one where one of my more favorite Scouting sayings comes into play. "We are chartered to be leaders, not to be robots." We receive guidance from National, but in very, very, very few areas are those directives. Ultimately, the individual leader has to do what they think is best. And you won't always be correct.