Eagledad Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.Jesus also said not to lead children away from God. There is a difference between loving the sinner and condoning the sin. Accepting Role models who openly promote sin as an acceptable lifestyle is irresponsible. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I read about Trail Life and my first thought was the BSA should go to court and get injunctions against this group. How DARE they just change the names of things and think they have a "new" program. They even have a conversion (ha ha, not!) chart for changing BSA ranks, etc. to Trail Life equivalents. It's a copy cat program and National should sue them. It's fine to have your own group if you have sincere differences of opinion, but have some originality. Don't copy because you don't have enough creativity to come up with your own ranks and badges. Since when is there a copyright on fire starting? Also, religious recognitions are not a requirement of BSA, a distinctive of the "Trail to Freedom." Were I to advise a TL group; however, I would encourage the boys to demonstrate that they have mastered most of the skill related requirements before requesting sign-off on the respective advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM bob Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.In my troop there is no no talk of sex or drugs. A scout can be openly gay but he can't discuss it anymore than a straight scout can. Scouting is about responsibility, skills, and community. If BSA allowed gay leaders I would not care, because they like everyone else are not allowed to talk about sex. If trail life is similar to the BSA program, but they teach intollorance they are not being good Christians. Let God judge and the rest of us should go camping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.So you think the gay lifestyle is only about sex? I'm not sure the homosexual community considers you a friend. I'm sorry bob, but you won't find anywhere in the bible that righteousness requires tolerating to point of acceptance. If we follow your principles, then we must accept and embrace role models who are recruiters for the KKK, known convicted felons including sexual predators who have done there prison time. You support a dangerous and ridiculous assumption that all ALL behavior is safe for our children so long as we don't talk about it. If you think homosexuality is fine for you kids, great, but don't be judgmental to those that disagree. that would be intolerant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM bob Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.I am do not believe I'm being judgmental. I am simply stating that sexuality or sexual orientation does not belong in scouting. Any group or program that preaches/teaches/rallies on discriminating or condemning another group is not following the precepts of Christianity. Mathew 5:43-38 clearly states that you have to love your enemy. The new testament does not allow us to hate based on differences. Jesus taught us to love. Why then do we build walls. If a young person wants to follow the BSA program then that is all that matters. Everything else is just a distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 As a Jew married to a Christian, I am sure I have a different perspective than most Christians here. Living in the south I am reminded daily that I live in the bible belt. Groups like Trail Life and AHG that are "christian based" don't make sense to me. We live in a multi-cultural society and it is important that our boys are brought up in an inclusive environment with people that are actually different from them. I have not had any complaints from anyone in our unit about our interfaith services because it is a learning experience for them. I we lock ourselves in a room with only people like us that believe in the same things, the boys will be in a big shock when they grow into young men to be our leaders. Girl Scout councils across the country are selling off their camps and membership has dropped precipitously in many areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.So how would you reconcile being "morally straight" with a practicing, unmarried gay Scout or Adult Leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutergipper Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I don't wish them ill will, but I don't expect Trail Life to amount to much. The initial push, fueled by anger over the BSA policy switcheroo, will be as high as the wave gets, I suspect. Membership appears to be solely driven by Adults who believe they are signing their kids up for a "more Christian" organization, which they may be, but in the end - as was mentioned above - it will just be another version of the Church Youth Group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5scoutmom Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 There isn't a copyright on how to start a fire per se but the precepts of, for instance, Leave No Trace, were designed by BSA as are the merit badges, etc. The impression that I got is that TL is cannibalizing those parts of BSA material that they want. They want Christian religious recognitions, that's fine, but making a similar number of ranks and almost equivalent requirements to BSA is cheating. A conversion chart implies that they are not using original concepts but are copying Scout concepts. Although imitation is supposedly the sincerest form of flattery, this isn't imitation, it's theft of ideas. I don't know if BSA has copyrighted or trademarked any of its merit badge books or the names it uses but... Let TL come up with a completely different program that doesn't just steal BSA ideas and put them in a fundamentalist right wing context and I'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM bob Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.I take morally straight as practicing a religion and striving to be a good person. Is a sin not a sin? Is one sin worse than another? Everyone sins. There are many existing adult leaders who commit adultery or infidelity. Mathew 6 : 14“For if you forgive others * their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins As I said in the beginning of this thread, let God judge we should stick to scouting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Leave No Trace was designed by several US government agencies for any and all organizations to use in their programs. BSA is perhaps the largest consumer. One could say that BSA has been milking the fruit of practical Christianity for years and TL is only putting the original moniker on it. (That's technically not correct because methods of ordering one's life stem from monastic traditions that predate the Evangelical movement by a millenium - but in broad strokes, it fits.) Breaking accomplishment into small steps is nothing new. The European University model was developed in the 12 century. BSA has 7 ranks; TL six. They seem to be imposing age benchmarks, which BSA does not do. You say potayyto, I say potahhto ... More importantly, the TL organizers are very much aware of copyright law. Some of them may have helped BSA defend it's turf over the years. I really don't want a dime of my membership fee going towards infringement challenges against TL. I'd rather the boys who are caught up in this culture war to get into learning and growing and building program, so I'm glad the conversion chart is available to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walk in the woods Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 There isn't a copyright on how to start a fire per se but the precepts of, for instance, Leave No Trace, were designed by BSA as are the merit badges, etc. The impression that I got is that TL is cannibalizing those parts of BSA material that they want. They want Christian religious recognitions, that's fine, but making a similar number of ranks and almost equivalent requirements to BSA is cheating. A conversion chart implies that they are not using original concepts but are copying Scout concepts. Although imitation is supposedly the sincerest form of flattery, this isn't imitation, it's theft of ideas. I don't know if BSA has copyrighted or trademarked any of its merit badge books or the names it uses but... Let TL come up with a completely different program that doesn't just steal BSA ideas and put them in a fundamentalist right wing context and I'll be fine. Well, I suppose the folks at lnt.org would take some disagreement with you on the origins of LNT. Merit badges started as early as the Scouting program in the UK. So, I guess the BSA stole those both of your examples. You all spend a lot of time carping about an organization you assume won't amount to much, has it all wrong, etc. Get over it. Organizational decisions were made and personal decisions were made. Those that choose to stay need to stop bitchin' and start figuring out why membership continues to drop at an increasing rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinator Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 There isn't a copyright on how to start a fire per se but the precepts of, for instance, Leave No Trace, were designed by BSA as are the merit badges, etc. The impression that I got is that TL is cannibalizing those parts of BSA material that they want. They want Christian religious recognitions, that's fine, but making a similar number of ranks and almost equivalent requirements to BSA is cheating. A conversion chart implies that they are not using original concepts but are copying Scout concepts. Although imitation is supposedly the sincerest form of flattery, this isn't imitation, it's theft of ideas. I don't know if BSA has copyrighted or trademarked any of its merit badge books or the names it uses but... Let TL come up with a completely different program that doesn't just steal BSA ideas and put them in a fundamentalist right wing context and I'll be fine. Merit badges or what Baden-Powell called proficiency badges are hardly unique to the BSA. Are you suggesting that the badge requirements in Trail Life are the same as those in the BSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashmaster Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Trail life is misguided. Instead of an original program around Christian values, they copy the BSA program and modify the names and terms. The families that have issues with BSA should join their church youth group and be happy.Being morally straight is subjective. Scouting accepts almost all religions as far as I know. only a subset of them say anything about homosexuality. And some christian faiths accept gays as well, for instance the United Church of Christ. So I guess I have trouble wrapping my head around why morally straight has to be of a particular religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal_Crawford Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 One of the reasons the scout camps are so expensive is because they keep increasing infrastructure which is expensive to begin with and then the maintenance costs. Too many are trying to be mini-resorts which happen to do some scout stuff. Focus should be on the woods and camping.Local authorities insisted on latrine upgrades at our council camp over ground water concerns. A lot of improvements are health and safety related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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