Ownership Of The Scout Oath.

[Fat Old Guy]

NJCubScoutDude, you can't judge the past by present standards.

[NJCubScouter]

FOG, I agree with that only up to a point. It depends how far back in the past, and what kind of behavior is in question.

 

This makes me think of a movie that my kids watch a lot, I think it is the Lion King. There's a scene that goes something like this:

Character A says that some past event doesn't matter because it's "in the past."

Character B hits Character A over the head with a stick, causing A to ask why.

Character A: "It does not matter why. It's in the past."

 

In other words, "past" is sort of a matter of perspective.

 

I could give some actual historical examples but I don't want to completely hijack the thread.

[ozemu]

Ed - I respect where you are coming from. If I were in the boys Troop or either of the fathers I might view the boy differently but I know nothing about them and can only be detached from the horror of the situation. I certainly do not regard the issue as a sin. You will disagree with this maybe but to address the less contentious issue first.

 

I understand that this boy has not lived up to his Oath but as for removing him from a leadership position I have some reservations.

 

1. Is that not punishing him for something that is being addressed (I suppose) by other, more directly involved agencies? ie is he catching a double punishment and is that fair?

 

2. Leadership is a funny thing. He needs to have peoples attention, a good idea and an ability to get then to move toward the good idea. He needs no-ones permission a nor badges of office to do this. His age (and experience) will serve him well as a leader. So if he is in the Troop and has the boys respect (not as a whole being but as a leader) then a leadership position in the Troop will be his regardless of any position allocated to him.

 

3. Both of our countries have had our senior politicians, of recent past, run off and have sex with a women other than their wife. Neither lost office nor any real respect for their previously acknowledged leadership ability. (I did not nor would have voted for either of the ones I am thinking of) They had charisma and lots of jokes at their expense due to their promiscuity. They still led the nations though - until the next elections. So this boys future as a leader will be dictated by natural forces within and outside of his control. I dont think that SMs/PLC have much to do with it at this point.

 

I understand the anxiety however can only think that this will sort itself out for the best if that is what we concentrate on.

 

Both of our Scout Laws are positive statements. A Scout is .... etc. Never A Scout shalt not ... And I think that this is the best way to approach the issue of this boys role in the Troop. Look at the positives rather than the negatives. And that may be harder to do than to look for punishment or rejection. Certainly I find the Scout Laws more demanding then the Ten Commandmants (I was brought up Methodist). But then I have never liked the tendancy toward persecution shown by the major religions and my arguement may be skewed here. I see a problem not a sin.

 

This issue will never be under the table. It will be as real and palpable with every formal and informal meeting of Scouts in the Troop as is the Scout himself. It is more a monster that stands alongside this boy wherever he is at the moment. If his Troop can deal with the monster they will have gained the positives out of the matter and they will have created a humane place in which to live.

 

Im thinking that it is a cant see the trees for the forest type problem. Only here it isnt trees and forest its monster and boy. And obviously I side with the boy, regardless of his past performance, as long as he is doing his best now.

[Campfire Fairy]

I love how we brought in the cruelties of the world in general into this thread about the Scout Oath...

 

 

I say to each his (or her!) own. The US Constitution has been around for 200+ years and we're still interpreting it in a zillion different ways. Just because the Scout Oath is a fraction of its length doesn't mean it won't have the same problem.

[Adrianvs]

First of all, associating the "pilgrims" with the US government (past or present) or all those of "European" ancestry is absurd. It's just another form of the "All them ----- are the same" bias. Neither the red tribes nor the white ones would have appreciated being lumped together then. I doubt that any reasonable one would now.

 

Regarding the Oath, imagine that we are teaching a youth an outdoor skill like firebuilding. If the scout is performing the task improperly, we should inform him of his error and give him advice or demonstrations of proper methods. One improper extreme would be to tell him that all methods are equally valid and fail to assist him in doing it correctly. Another would be to "kick him out" or prevent him from trying to correct the mistakes. Yes, the Oath seems subjective at times. Perhaps the youth knows a technique more effective than your own. Perhaps you are in error. You must still inform him of what you believe to be true or you are doing no service at all.

[Eamonn]

Dave of course you are right but I don't think that a bunch of words said with no passion or conviction can really be looked upon as an oath.

I have this crazy idea that young people have times when they tune it in and then tune it out. I know this sounds off the wall. But if you go over the Oath and Law with a little fellow he will hang on every word and go with it. As he gets a little older he will try to challenge it and look for the loop holes. We might think that there are none, but he will will look. This is when we have to fall back on the methods of Scouting.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

"This makes me think of a movie that my kids watch a lot, I think it is the Lion King."

 

Disney, Inc., one of the great philosophers of the 21st century. I'm not surprised that you'd quote them.

[NJCubScouter]

Disney, Inc., one of the great philosophers of the 21st century. I'm not surprised that you'd quote them.

 

When they're right, sure, why not?

[NJCubScouter]

Left this out:

 

FOG, do you really deny that the "past" is a relative term? That was really the whole point of my quotation.

 

Or to put it another way, there is not mathematical measurement to determine when a particular past act or practice is "ok" because "standards" have changed from then to now.

 

What you are really saying is another version of the old line, "the winners write the history books." This is true, though it is now in conflict with a more recent trend to write history as it actually was, and not just from the "winner's" standpoint.

[Fat Old Guy]

"When they're right, sure, why not?"

 

They are only right in your mind.

 

"FOG, do you really deny that the "past" is a relative term?"

 

Past is an absolute, at least in the current state of physics. There is past and the future separated by the present.

 

"Or to put it another way, there is not mathematical measurement to determine when a particular past act or practice is "ok" because "standards" have changed from then to now."

 

You really don't understand much do you? You judge acts by the standards of the time in which they occurred. Not by last years standards or the standards of next year, by the standards of the time.

[Mike F]

As an adult, I'm not perfect and the boys aren't either. If I stray and don't self-correct, I hope I have some friends who care enough to have a quiet talk with me. (And yes, I've been on both ends of these uncomfortable talks.) We do the same for the boys -- "let's talk about this - do you understand what went wrong? What are you going to do about it? How will you be sure this won't happen again? Etc." If they see the error of their ways and are willing to make amends and straighten up, all is made right in the world.

Whats at issue in this young mans tragic situation is whether or not he acknowledges he made a mistake. If he does and wants to move forward in Scouting, I hope we can support him.

Since the rest of the troop apparently knows the situation, I would recommend not ignoring it. Best to get it out in the open so other boys can learn from his mistake. Its one thing to hear the generic warnings about unintended consequences, but quite another to hear first-hand from a friend. Every one of those boys is going to be faced with the decision he blew in the next 5-10 years and his example has the potential to save them from sharing the same fate.

Consider having a Scouts-only talk where he levels with the guys to tell them what has happened, what it means to him and his girlfriend and their families, etc. Have him note how if he had just really lived by the Oath and Law, he wouldnt be in this situation. Finish up by admitting he blew it and knows he let down his family, his girlfriend, his God, and his Scout buddies, but hes going to continue to do his best for his girlfriend and their child and he hopes his Scout buddies will allow him to continue to enjoy scouting for as long as his new life and responsibilities will allow.

 

My prayers are with him and all involved.