Use of deception in Scout Training

[JoeBob]

I once witnessed a scout ceremony that involved the use of torches. All was fine until during the ceremony an adult tried to add some Coleman fuel to a torch that had just about gone out. Well a little fuel spilled on the ground and the lite part of the torch set the fuel on fire, including the fuel that splashed onto the adults sleeve. In very quiet manner, two other adults put the adult and the grass out. All was fine I thought to myself, a lesson learned. So I thought until not a few moments later the same adult repeated the exact same exercise to another dying torch with the exact same results. What did the scouts learn I wondered? Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making. Some boys get it, many don't and they go on into life repeating Mr. Johnsons method of teaching (influence). The problem is in the old statement that people don't change. Perdidochas's ASM will continually behave in his style. As a SM who had to hold adults accounble for how they role modeled in front of scouts, I hated that part of the job. Not that SMs don't have their own faults, but someone has to set some kind of bar. I'm not throwing out advice here, but I would approach the ASM. Barry

Coleman Fuel on lit torches? That's white gas! The man is dangerous!

[Scouter99]

If it were my sons or my scouts' date=' I would have taken them to the council. My brother didn't want to make waves. I did suggest it.[/quote']

 

I think you need to ask your brother what he wants: For this to happen over and over again for the next X years 30 boys at a time, or if he doesn't want to make waves.

 

Contrary to the beliefs of the R Lee Ermey wannabe nimrod who came up with this, every kid who goes through that NYLT is learning to act the way they were treated, as long as they grin and say "just kiddin'" at the end. And given the way these nimrods tend to become ensconced your brother can be sure if he doesn't wake waves now that's the way things are going to stay in that course. If he just can't bring himself to do it, his son's SM needs to be appraised and take the situation to the SE.

[SSScout]

Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making.

 

I think Eagledad makes a great point. We aren't just trying to teach the scouts technical skills, but we are also modeling behavior.

 

Take for example the (very bad in my opinion) practice that some troops have of making a scout sing to get lost property back. What behavior is it modeling? If a scout is out in the street and sees the man in front of him drop his wallet, which should he say: "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet." or "Hey mister, I got your wallet. Sing a song and I'll give it back to you.". If the second is not acceptable to a stranger, how is it acceptable to a fellow scout?

"Mr. Jenks? Has anyone found a pocket knife? I think I dropped mine somewhere around the bulletin board last night".

"Well, Jimmy, what kind was it?"

"It's a Case , with a canopener and two blades, one short one long."

"Ummm. Does it look like..... this?"

"Yeah!" Gee, great!"

"Okay, Jimmy, wait a minute... ((ties a looooong string onto knife loop)). Here. Maybe this will help you, eh? . I lost the knife my uncle gave me. I know where it is too."

"You do?"

"Yep. I was a Scout about your age. It's somewhere between Harpers Ferry and Pine Knob Cabin on the AT. "

" Oh. Thanks Mr. Jenks. "

[Sentinel947]

Sentinel1947,

Take heart, NYLT is doing away with the generic nature they adopted when the course went coed. I unfortunately had to run my course under this generic model and I struggled remembering not to use SPL, PL, Patrol meeting, Patrol names, etc. The course will remain coed, but they are going back to the Boy Scout Troop/Patrol model and terminology. The excuse I heard....I mean reason....is that the Boy Scouts in the courses struggled with the generic position names while the Venturing kids had no problem adjustin to using the Boy Scout terms. So the coed program for both Boy Scouts and Venturers will once again use the terminology and model that was being used earlier.

What years where the changes implemented? When did it to coed? When do they plan to change the terminology back?

[Rick_in_CA]

If it were my sons or my scouts' date=' I would have taken them to the council. My brother didn't want to make waves. I did suggest it.[/quote']

 

I think you need to ask your brother what he wants: For this to happen over and over again for the next X years 30 boys at a time, or if he doesn't want to make waves.

 

Contrary to the beliefs of the R Lee Ermey wannabe nimrod who came up with this, every kid who goes through that NYLT is learning to act the way they were treated, as long as they grin and say "just kiddin'" at the end. And given the way these nimrods tend to become ensconced your brother can be sure if he doesn't wake waves now that's the way things are going to stay in that course. If he just can't bring himself to do it, his son's SM needs to be appraised and take the situation to the SE.

I second this. This kind of nonsense has to be confronted or it will spread. It has no place in scouting and should not be tolerated. The SE has to be notified.

[qwazse]

Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making.

 

I think Eagledad makes a great point. We aren't just trying to teach the scouts technical skills, but we are also modeling behavior.

 

Take for example the (very bad in my opinion) practice that some troops have of making a scout sing to get lost property back. What behavior is it modeling? If a scout is out in the street and sees the man in front of him drop his wallet, which should he say: "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet." or "Hey mister, I got your wallet. Sing a song and I'll give it back to you.". If the second is not acceptable to a stranger, how is it acceptable to a fellow scout?

Don't even equate this stuff with singing for your gear. We don't hold a stranger to LNT. We do expect a scout to do right by his country, his troop, and his mamma.

 

And if it's good enough for a scout, it's good enough for scouters. In fact I've gladly sung for my gear, and would gladly do so again. But, the last couple times, SM said he'd take a raincheck! Still waiting in the wings for when the troop needs me to sing.

[qwazse]

If it were my sons or my scouts' date=' I would have taken them to the council. My brother didn't want to make waves. I did suggest it.[/quote']

 

I think you need to ask your brother what he wants: For this to happen over and over again for the next X years 30 boys at a time, or if he doesn't want to make waves.

 

Contrary to the beliefs of the R Lee Ermey wannabe nimrod who came up with this, every kid who goes through that NYLT is learning to act the way they were treated, as long as they grin and say "just kiddin'" at the end. And given the way these nimrods tend to become ensconced your brother can be sure if he doesn't wake waves now that's the way things are going to stay in that course. If he just can't bring himself to do it, his son's SM needs to be appraised and take the situation to the SE.

Giving feedback is not making waves. But, perdi's brother could wind up finding himself being the next NYLT instructor!

 

Fact is, the adults who can tell me they don't like what I'm doing are the ones who've help me the most. Even if I disagree with them, I learn to communicate better.

[perdidochas]

Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making.

 

I think Eagledad makes a great point. We aren't just trying to teach the scouts technical skills, but we are also modeling behavior.

 

Take for example the (very bad in my opinion) practice that some troops have of making a scout sing to get lost property back. What behavior is it modeling? If a scout is out in the street and sees the man in front of him drop his wallet, which should he say: "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet." or "Hey mister, I got your wallet. Sing a song and I'll give it back to you.". If the second is not acceptable to a stranger, how is it acceptable to a fellow scout?

I thought BSA gave up on that practice a few years ago. I can remember doing it wh en the boys were cubs, but some training said it was now considered hazing, so we stopped.

[SR540Beaver]

Sentinel1947,

Take heart, NYLT is doing away with the generic nature they adopted when the course went coed. I unfortunately had to run my course under this generic model and I struggled remembering not to use SPL, PL, Patrol meeting, Patrol names, etc. The course will remain coed, but they are going back to the Boy Scout Troop/Patrol model and terminology. The excuse I heard....I mean reason....is that the Boy Scouts in the courses struggled with the generic position names while the Venturing kids had no problem adjustin to using the Boy Scout terms. So the coed program for both Boy Scouts and Venturers will once again use the terminology and model that was being used earlier.

Sentinel, I looked at my old syllabus and it says that Venturing was included in 2010, so that would be when it went coed. It also listed changes for 2011 as the terminology changing. That was when it went away from troop/patrol terminology and became generic. My course was in 2012. I have wracked my brain trying to remember the source of the change back to using the old terminlogoy, but I can't find it. I can assure you it was from an official and reputable source. I'm guessing that the change starts this year as I heard it last year. I actually believe it was during one of our council youth training committee meetings after our 2014 course directors returned from the course directors conference.

[ASM162]

Ripping patches off of a uniform is destruction of property. Scout shirts are not cheap. patches cost money.

I would take the uniform to a tailor and have the patches reattached and then send the course director the bill.

Maybe that will help influence his decision to continue the "training method"

 

[packsaddle]

I once witnessed a scout ceremony that involved the use of torches. All was fine until during the ceremony an adult tried to add some Coleman fuel to a torch that had just about gone out. Well a little fuel spilled on the ground and the lite part of the torch set the fuel on fire, including the fuel that splashed onto the adults sleeve. In very quiet manner, two other adults put the adult and the grass out. All was fine I thought to myself, a lesson learned. So I thought until not a few moments later the same adult repeated the exact same exercise to another dying torch with the exact same results. What did the scouts learn I wondered? Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making. Some boys get it, many don't and they go on into life repeating Mr. Johnsons method of teaching (influence). The problem is in the old statement that people don't change. Perdidochas's ASM will continually behave in his style. As a SM who had to hold adults accounble for how they role modeled in front of scouts, I hated that part of the job. Not that SMs don't have their own faults, but someone has to set some kind of bar. I'm not throwing out advice here, but I would approach the ASM. Barry

In spite of how nervous I know this is going to make him feel, I agree with JoeBob.

[packsaddle]

FOR ME AND MY KIDS AND THE SCOUTS IN THE UNITS I REPRESENT ... I can't speak for others....

 

I think there is a clear boundary.

 

Use the question --> Can you tell the scout what is going to happen without losing the effect of the lesson?

 

The core method of scouting is to take scouts out of their comfort zone as part of an event (bike trips, canoe trips, hiking, camping, etc). It is very very different to setup lessons whose goal from the start is to manipulate their emotions and their behavior.

 

Way in advance of a canoe trip, scouts can learn about packing, planning, working together as a patrol for meals, working together in the canoe to paddle, having three in the canoe so that the middle person has a chance to rest if needed. During the event, they can use those lessons to succeed or fail safely ... I hope.

 

It is a completely different to setup situations that manipulate emotions or behavior to teach a lesson. To take an unknowing scout through a fake situation to manipulate a scout is abuse ... IMHO. And it teaches distrust and manipulation.

Agreed.

[Basementdweller]

If it were my sons or my scouts' date=' I would have taken them to the council. My brother didn't want to make waves. I did suggest it.[/quote']

 

I think you need to ask your brother what he wants: For this to happen over and over again for the next X years 30 boys at a time, or if he doesn't want to make waves.

 

Contrary to the beliefs of the R Lee Ermey wannabe nimrod who came up with this, every kid who goes through that NYLT is learning to act the way they were treated, as long as they grin and say "just kiddin'" at the end. And given the way these nimrods tend to become ensconced your brother can be sure if he doesn't wake waves now that's the way things are going to stay in that course. If he just can't bring himself to do it, his son's SM needs to be appraised and take the situation to the SE.

From what was said the council or district would be better off with no NYLT training verse this one

[EagleJCS]

something needs to be done about that NYLT example. I cant see any reason that should have happened, example or not. Clearly the staff (and the advisor) do not understand how to teach leadership, probably as a result of being taught poorly themselves. By teaching that "method" they are spreading that bad behavior back to the units and possibly other locations like schools. And by telling the participants not to tell anyone about it, it shows they know its wrong. I shake my head as to how that was allowed to go on for 3 minutes, let alone 3 days

My first reaction would be to get that NYLT course director at a council function and do the same thing to him/her, then hand them a letter barring them from any future council activities. That sort of 'example' is wrong from the get-go.