Use of deception in Scout Training

[perdidochas]

Trying to scare me out of NYLT this summer?

 

Luckily, I've never had an experience even close to that. I'm with Sentinel on this one: "Where was the Advisor????"

My question is, where were any adults in general?

The adults were present. They agreed with it.

 

That said, I do thing the NYLT is a abberration. Some of our boys went to a different NYLT, and had a much different experience.

[perdidochas]

Did I miss something? Is deception now a major part of scout training? The above ASM claimed he learned this idea at Philmont. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills? The thing is' date=' I spend too much time trying to foster the Scout Law, that I really can't just kick out trustworthy.[/quote']

 

First off, as usual, your local experience stinks but extrapolating it to capital-S Scouting is goofy.

 

That said, I can see someone thinking example 1 is a good idea for 30 minutes, but 3 days is outrageous and effectively amounted to wasting half the week. Whoever had that idea and especially whoever approved it and oversaw it should be directed to a new avenue for their volunteering in the council, like data entry.

 

Second one just sounds like you've got a jerkwad ASM and someone should let him know that he's not impressive and no one likes him. Do it early so he doesn't build up a mental barrier against this reality.

Well, the first wasn't local. It was a nearby council. I do agree that 30 minutes of that would have made the point.

 

In terms of the ASM, my youngest son, who is irritated by this man, is the new SPL. It will be interesting. I am an ASM, so it's not really my place to coach this man. After all, he's been to Philmont for training :-) as well as Wood Badge. The thing is, I know the boys. They are my boys' friends. I camp with them, and I've known some of them for 7 or 8 yrs. He dug his own hole with them. I agree with your assessment of him.

[Eagledad]

Methinks that 'The Game of Life' has spawned.

 

And the hazing cited for that NYLT class presents the irresistible pun: 'Would Badger'.

Well said, and very clever.

[perdidochas]

something needs to be done about that NYLT example. I cant see any reason that should have happened, example or not. Clearly the staff (and the advisor) do not understand how to teach leadership, probably as a result of being taught poorly themselves. By teaching that "method" they are spreading that bad behavior back to the units and possibly other locations like schools. And by telling the participants not to tell anyone about it, it shows they know its wrong. I shake my head as to how that was allowed to go on for 3 minutes, let alone 3 days

I've talked to my brother about it (Scout's father). He's an ASM in same Council as NYLT, and has had run-ins with the adult involved in the past. On hearing the story, my reaction was to take them down. That's hazing and is just wrong on so many levels. They don't want to do that.

[perdidochas]

I once witnessed a scout ceremony that involved the use of torches. All was fine until during the ceremony an adult tried to add some Coleman fuel to a torch that had just about gone out. Well a little fuel spilled on the ground and the lite part of the torch set the fuel on fire, including the fuel that splashed onto the adults sleeve. In very quiet manner, two other adults put the adult and the grass out. All was fine I thought to myself, a lesson learned. So I thought until not a few moments later the same adult repeated the exact same exercise to another dying torch with the exact same results. What did the scouts learn I wondered? Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making. Some boys get it, many don't and they go on into life repeating Mr. Johnsons method of teaching (influence). The problem is in the old statement that people don't change. Perdidochas's ASM will continually behave in his style. As a SM who had to hold adults accounble for how they role modeled in front of scouts, I hated that part of the job. Not that SMs don't have their own faults, but someone has to set some kind of bar. I'm not throwing out advice here, but I would approach the ASM. Barry

I think I will talk to the ASM. He also has a tendency to take over from the boys, while the rest of leadership sits back and let the boys do it. I think I will talk to him to try to lessen the confrontation that my son will have with him.

[Eagledad]

something needs to be done about that NYLT example. I cant see any reason that should have happened, example or not. Clearly the staff (and the advisor) do not understand how to teach leadership, probably as a result of being taught poorly themselves. By teaching that "method" they are spreading that bad behavior back to the units and possibly other locations like schools. And by telling the participants not to tell anyone about it, it shows they know its wrong. I shake my head as to how that was allowed to go on for 3 minutes, let alone 3 days

Yes, the whole point of this exercise is to help the participants better understand how new scouts feel when joining a troop. We changed this part of the JLTC syllabus (NYLT predecessor). After all the participants arrived and before we did anything else, we instructed all the scouts that they had 30 minutes to form 8 man patrols, elect a leader, assign every patrol member a responsibility, then give the roster to the SPL. We felt the stress of finding 7 other patrol mates and forming a patrol from a room full of strangers gave the same effect without the deception. It wasn't simulation, those were the patrols for the rest of the week. Barry

[fred johnson]

FOR ME AND MY KIDS AND THE SCOUTS IN THE UNITS I REPRESENT ... I can't speak for others....

 

I think there is a clear boundary.

 

Use the question --> Can you tell the scout what is going to happen without losing the effect of the lesson?

 

The core method of scouting is to take scouts out of their comfort zone as part of an event (bike trips, canoe trips, hiking, camping, etc). It is very very different to setup lessons whose goal from the start is to manipulate their emotions and their behavior.

 

Way in advance of a canoe trip, scouts can learn about packing, planning, working together as a patrol for meals, working together in the canoe to paddle, having three in the canoe so that the middle person has a chance to rest if needed. During the event, they can use those lessons to succeed or fail safely ... I hope.

 

It is a completely different to setup situations that manipulate emotions or behavior to teach a lesson. To take an unknowing scout through a fake situation to manipulate a scout is abuse ... IMHO. And it teaches distrust and manipulation.

[SR540Beaver]

peridochas,

 

I was an NYLT course director in the fall of 2012 and I'm on the youth training committee for our council. Just like Wood Badge, a course director signs a pledge to deliver the course as written. I can assure you, what the youth experienced during their course is not part of the NYLT course material. Someone decided to wing it and make it "better" or more to their own personal liking. The council training chair and the Scout Executive need to be asked and provide an answer on how this was allowed to happen. In fact, if you've been to Wood Badge, NYLT is almost identical material simply tweaked for a younger crowd. Heck, they don't even use the Game of Life from WB in NYLT. It's a very positive course that stresses servant leadership. All of the material supports the oath and law. Unless the youth just got some sort of twisted view or is overly sensitive and prone to exageration......which I doubt, someone needs to account for what happened and give assurances that any future course will be held strictly by the book.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Sentinel1947,

Take heart, NYLT is doing away with the generic nature they adopted when the course went coed. I unfortunately had to run my course under this generic model and I struggled remembering not to use SPL, PL, Patrol meeting, Patrol names, etc. The course will remain coed, but they are going back to the Boy Scout Troop/Patrol model and terminology. The excuse I heard....I mean reason....is that the Boy Scouts in the courses struggled with the generic position names while the Venturing kids had no problem adjustin to using the Boy Scout terms. So the coed program for both Boy Scouts and Venturers will once again use the terminology and model that was being used earlier.

 

[perdidochas]

Thanks to all for responses. Sometimes I like to get grounding from outsiders, to make sure it's not just me.

[Basementdweller]

My scouts were treated like that in training, I would take the entire bunch to the SE and have them make statements....

 

The course director needs fired and possibly some jail time

[perdidochas]

My scouts were treated like that in training, I would take the entire bunch to the SE and have them make statements....

 

The course director needs fired and possibly some jail time

If it were my sons or my scouts, I would have taken them to the council. My brother didn't want to make waves. I did suggest it.

[Peregrinator]

It bears repeating:

 

"If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge and never be allowed to wear it again." (Lord Baden-Powell)

[Rick_in_CA]

Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making.

 

I think Eagledad makes a great point. We aren't just trying to teach the scouts technical skills, but we are also modeling behavior.

 

Take for example the (very bad in my opinion) practice that some troops have of making a scout sing to get lost property back. What behavior is it modeling? If a scout is out in the street and sees the man in front of him drop his wallet, which should he say: "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet." or "Hey mister, I got your wallet. Sing a song and I'll give it back to you.". If the second is not acceptable to a stranger, how is it acceptable to a fellow scout?

[MattR]

Methinks that 'The Game of Life' has spawned.

 

And the hazing cited for that NYLT class presents the irresistible pun: 'Would Badger'.

I was thinking of that game as well. That game caught me hook line and sinker. I was upset with it and refused to be a part of it.

 

As usual, my guess is someone took a good idea and abused it. In this case they kept up the charade for a few days rather than, say, an hour. Which is probably too long for scouts.