Use of deception in Scout Training

[perdidochas]

I've been noticing the use of deception (aka lying) in training of Boy Scouts lately, and it disturbs me. Mostly it is done to heighten the tension of an activity, but, IMHO, in process, it turns off Scouts, and undermines the Scout Law (A Scout is Trustworthy).

 

The first case is a Scout relative of mine who went to NYLT training in his home council. The first three days of it, the Scouts were berated, treated like dirt, and treated like they were in Marine boot camp circa Full Metal Jacket. My nephew's uniform patches were torn off. Then, the last few days, they were told that the experiences of the first days were wrong, and this is how you really should lead. In addition, they were told not to tell anyone about what happened. I can understand not telling other scouts about to experience it, but NO part of the BSA program should be kept secret from parents. Honestly, if I were his parents, heads would have rolled. The experience seemed very much against the values that I try to foster as an ASM. Also, it's been found educationally that teaching the wrong way to do things first isn't as effective as teaching the correct method first. In addition, it really began to turn my relative against the Scouting ideals. He felt wronged, not trained.

 

The second case is an ASM in my troop. I will admit, I didn't quite feel this as strongly, but the violation wasn't as bad. However, it was still a case of lying. This ASM has gone to several adult trainings at Philmont (which he makes sure we know about every time he talks to the other ASMs or the Scouts). He was doing a team building activity. In this activity, he had the ruse of a "elaborate knot contest" that was being filmed so it could be "judged at Philmont." Of course it was just a setup, but it really struck my youngest son as being wrong. I will admit, I didn't see it that way at the time, but as an adult, I'm much less concrete in my thinking. However, most scouts still are. Educationally, this was not a good thing. My son is slowly starting to despise this man more and more, and it is starting to reflect on his attitude on scouting.

 

Did I miss something? Is deception now a major part of scout training? The above ASM claimed he learned this idea at Philmont. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills? The thing is, I spend too much time trying to foster the Scout Law, that I really can't just kick out trustworthy.

[Sentinel947]

In my opinion, the first example is far and away worse than the second one. There is no place for hazing in Scouting , and your first example was hazing. Your nephew was hazed. Some other people might object to the use of the word, but that is hazing and a shoddy attempt to cover it up. Where was the Advisor????

 

The second example isn't as clear. There is more nuance. Children do not like to be deceived by adults, regardless of whatever reason. Ultimately as Adults and ethical human beings we learn that just because the ends are good, it doesn't justify that we use unethical means to achieve them. The ASM should know this and adjust his behavior.

 

I try to foster with my Scouts as open and honest relationship as possible. I want them to be open and honest with me, so I try my hardest to be clear and truthful to them. A Scout is trustworthy and so should Scout leaders.

[packsaddle]

Both of these are disturbing. Youth will experience deception quickly enough as it is, scouting ought to be a place where you can trust others...seems like there's something like that in a law or something.

In the first case, when the boys were told not to 'tell', THAT is what someone would demand if they had just molested a child...right? I would be livid about it and I think you have a right to feel the same way.

In the second case, your son is developing a perfectly logical response to someone who is a liar. Your ASM needs to modify his interactions so they are constructive. Time is running out.

[fred johnson]

This triggered a bad memory of a troop that used to do patrol lines after camp. The SM taught the SPL that to drill "patrol lines" to drop some trash on the ground after the patrol line had passed. It did drill the details of patrol lines, but it was one of several issues that broke my trust for leaving my son with their troop.

[qwazse]

Both are dumb. Humans are capable if empathy if if you telling them something is an act. One could say "today we will model some poor leadership. At the end of the day you will be asked to identify where we fell short." Or "let's pretend we're making a training video. We'll film each patrol. At the end you all will screen the videos and talk about which group did well enough for their video turns be used to train other scouts." You want boys to be involved in every aspect of their adventure, that includes criticism and judging.

[EagleScout441]

Trying to scare me out of NYLT this summer?

 

Luckily, I've never had an experience even close to that. I'm with Sentinel on this one: "Where was the Advisor????"

My question is, where were any adults in general?

[Sentinel947]

Trying to scare me out of NYLT this summer?

 

Luckily, I've never had an experience even close to that. I'm with Sentinel on this one: "Where was the Advisor????"

My question is, where were any adults in general?

NYLT was a fine experience for me. I attended in 2009. Since then, in my council they've allowed it to be Coed with Venturers to attend. It's changed the format of the week considerably, to the point where it's just "Leadership Training" not specific to Boy Scouts. I'm not a fan of how NYLT is ran in my council.

 

Hopefully yours will be different. I think you will have a good time at NYLT.

[Scouter99]

Did I miss something? Is deception now a major part of scout training? The above ASM claimed he learned this idea at Philmont. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills? The thing is' date=' I spend too much time trying to foster the Scout Law, that I really can't just kick out trustworthy.[/quote']

 

First off, as usual, your local experience stinks but extrapolating it to capital-S Scouting is goofy.

 

That said, I can see someone thinking example 1 is a good idea for 30 minutes, but 3 days is outrageous and effectively amounted to wasting half the week. Whoever had that idea and especially whoever approved it and oversaw it should be directed to a new avenue for their volunteering in the council, like data entry.

 

Second one just sounds like you've got a jerkwad ASM and someone should let him know that he's not impressive and no one likes him. Do it early so he doesn't build up a mental barrier against this reality.

[Sentinel947]

Did I miss something? Is deception now a major part of scout training? The above ASM claimed he learned this idea at Philmont. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills? The thing is' date=' I spend too much time trying to foster the Scout Law, that I really can't just kick out trustworthy.[/quote']

 

First off, as usual, your local experience stinks but extrapolating it to capital-S Scouting is goofy.

 

That said, I can see someone thinking example 1 is a good idea for 30 minutes, but 3 days is outrageous and effectively amounted to wasting half the week. Whoever had that idea and especially whoever approved it and oversaw it should be directed to a new avenue for their volunteering in the council, like data entry.

 

Second one just sounds like you've got a jerkwad ASM and someone should let him know that he's not impressive and no one likes him. Do it early so he doesn't build up a mental barrier against this reality.

Whoa... that wasn't charitable at all.

[Scouter99]

Did I miss something? Is deception now a major part of scout training? The above ASM claimed he learned this idea at Philmont. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills? The thing is' date=' I spend too much time trying to foster the Scout Law, that I really can't just kick out trustworthy.[/quote']

 

First off, as usual, your local experience stinks but extrapolating it to capital-S Scouting is goofy.

 

That said, I can see someone thinking example 1 is a good idea for 30 minutes, but 3 days is outrageous and effectively amounted to wasting half the week. Whoever had that idea and especially whoever approved it and oversaw it should be directed to a new avenue for their volunteering in the council, like data entry.

 

Second one just sounds like you've got a jerkwad ASM and someone should let him know that he's not impressive and no one likes him. Do it early so he doesn't build up a mental barrier against this reality.

It's my schtick.

[EagleScout441]

Trying to scare me out of NYLT this summer?

 

Luckily, I've never had an experience even close to that. I'm with Sentinel on this one: "Where was the Advisor????"

My question is, where were any adults in general?

For the record, I was being sarcastic.

 

I would have gone to NYLT last year, but it was the same week as my Troop's Summer Camp. So I chose Kodiak instead. This year, I'm serving on staff at Summer Camp and going to NYLT.

[Stosh]

When my boys come into the troop they are all required to go through the abuse pamphlet in the front of their book with their parents. Once that's done, they are instructed that whenever anyone makes them feel "concerned" about anything, tell an adult. If it's an adult, tell another adult. If they don't listen keep telling adults all the way to the police if necessary. I even add if it is me causing the concern, tell their parents right away.

 

Along with that whenever an adult is doing something that isn't right, they have the right as a leader to step up and say, "WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, " and then follow it with their concerns. This applies to other youth "leaders" in the patrol or troop.

 

It is my hope that such training in my troop would have brought this kind of activity to a screeching halt right from the beginning. My boys are repeatedly taught that if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't, but don't keep silent, take the lead and speak up. If you are wrong, suck it up, learn from it, and move on. If you're right, there are a lot of others that will thank you for it.

 

Occasionally I "test" my boys and those that speak up are encouraged to continue the process. About two or three times a year I will wear a pair of pants that are not uniform, but may look quite close or not wear a necker. More than once I have scouts come up and say, "With all due respect, Mr. B, we are a full uniform troop." It heartens me to know they are paying attention.

 

Stosh

[JoeBob]

Methinks that 'The Game of Life' has spawned.

 

And the hazing cited for that NYLT class presents the irresistible pun: 'Would Badger'.

[chrisking0997]

something needs to be done about that NYLT example. I cant see any reason that should have happened, example or not. Clearly the staff (and the advisor) do not understand how to teach leadership, probably as a result of being taught poorly themselves. By teaching that "method" they are spreading that bad behavior back to the units and possibly other locations like schools. And by telling the participants not to tell anyone about it, it shows they know its wrong. I shake my head as to how that was allowed to go on for 3 minutes, let alone 3 days

[Eagledad]

I once witnessed a scout ceremony that involved the use of torches. All was fine until during the ceremony an adult tried to add some Coleman fuel to a torch that had just about gone out. Well a little fuel spilled on the ground and the lite part of the torch set the fuel on fire, including the fuel that splashed onto the adults sleeve. In very quiet manner, two other adults put the adult and the grass out. All was fine I thought to myself, a lesson learned. So I thought until not a few moments later the same adult repeated the exact same exercise to another dying torch with the exact same results. What did the scouts learn I wondered? Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making. Some boys get it, many don't and they go on into life repeating Mr. Johnsons method of teaching (influence). The problem is in the old statement that people don't change. Perdidochas's ASM will continually behave in his style. As a SM who had to hold adults accounble for how they role modeled in front of scouts, I hated that part of the job. Not that SMs don't have their own faults, but someone has to set some kind of bar. I'm not throwing out advice here, but I would approach the ASM. Barry