Positions of Responsibility

[Eagledad]

Still trying to polish your social skills on the new parents BD? Your rant reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skits where Dan Aykrod yells "Jane you ignorant..hmmm". Well you know.

 

Scoutmom, you are basing your questions under the misunderstanding that the main objective of the POS (leadership) experience is for advancement of rank. Evem many troop leaders have that misconception. Positions of Responsibility are intended to give scouts practice in real life situation of making decisions based from the Scout Law. While we parents by nature tend to look at the gratifications of stature for our children, that is not the primary mission of the Scouting Program. The program mission as stated by the BSA is:The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. POS or Leadership is one of the many methods of how the BSA accomplishes their mission.

 

But you should also understand that POS experience isn't very useful unless it challenges a boy at his level of maturity and scouting experience. If the troop is running as designed, the Patrol Leader really should have a couple years experience in the troop to have the maturity and scouting experience for a quality leadership experience. I know there is a lot to learn about scouting and how it works, if you don't feel comfortable asking in this forum, there are several other Scout forums a little more understanding to new parents looking to learn. That being said, there are also a lot of good scouting direction here as well.

 

Barry

[Stosh]

The requirement says a boy has to SERVE in a POR for 6 months. Well, Johnny gets selected as APL for his 6 month term. Yet when it comes time for his BOR he walks in with his APL on his sleeve and the eyebrows all come up! So he gets questioned on it. He simply states that because he was APL he had lots of time on his hands and so he divided up his 6 months into 26 weeks. Numbers a piece of paper with 26 lines and fills them all in. He organized summer camp, registered the troop, lined up all the MB and SERVED as SPL for the week. That goes into line #1. Then the QM was going to be absent from the Spring Camporee so he got all the equipment for the patrols lined up for the weekend and filled in line #2. There were three service projects he organized for the troop on various Saturdays, so he filled in #3, #4, #5 as SPL. He got 5 lessons for the NSP lined up and taught, First Aid, knots, took them out and identified 10 plants and 10 animals on a hike, and got them to the pool for swimming. #6, #7, #8, #9, #10 filled in as Instructor. Then his PL missed 6 meetings due to school sports and so he filled in during his absence. That's #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16. The Webelos boys needed to come and visit the troop meeting, so he lined up a special program for them when they came to visit. #17 was marked as a SM Special Project. With no Chaplain's Aide available, he organized a prayer/devotion time for the winter campout, #18. The scribe didn't make it to the PLC so he took minutes for that and handed them into the scribe at the next meeting #19. A couple of boys were wanting to take a Citizenship in the Nation MB and so he dug through the supply cabinet to find enough pamphlets for the boys, #20. The Troop Website was out of date and so he sat down and put next year's calendar up on the site, #21. He noticed the QM didn't have an inventory list of equipment and the patrols were complaining about lack of supplies, so he inventoried the storage room and troop trailer and handed in an updated inventory list to the QM, and a list of missing/lost/short items to the CM treasurer to look into. #22. Knowing he was 4 weeks short, he asked the SM if he could organize and teach the leadership of the PLC in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method leadership instruction as a special project. The SM thought it might be a good supplement to their NYLT training and approved, #23, #24, #25 and #26.

 

So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement.

 

Yeah, right. That will sell!

 

This is why the POR patch means nothing to me! It's not what position you hold, it's the work you do that makes the man.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

The requirement says a boy has to SERVE in a POR for 6 months. Well, Johnny gets selected as APL for his 6 month term. Yet when it comes time for his BOR he walks in with his APL on his sleeve and the eyebrows all come up! So he gets questioned on it. He simply states that because he was APL he had lots of time on his hands and so he divided up his 6 months into 26 weeks. Numbers a piece of paper with 26 lines and fills them all in. He organized summer camp, registered the troop, lined up all the MB and SERVED as SPL for the week. That goes into line #1. Then the QM was going to be absent from the Spring Camporee so he got all the equipment for the patrols lined up for the weekend and filled in line #2. There were three service projects he organized for the troop on various Saturdays, so he filled in #3, #4, #5 as SPL. He got 5 lessons for the NSP lined up and taught, First Aid, knots, took them out and identified 10 plants and 10 animals on a hike, and got them to the pool for swimming. #6, #7, #8, #9, #10 filled in as Instructor. Then his PL missed 6 meetings due to school sports and so he filled in during his absence. That's #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16. The Webelos boys needed to come and visit the troop meeting, so he lined up a special program for them when they came to visit. #17 was marked as a SM Special Project. With no Chaplain's Aide available, he organized a prayer/devotion time for the winter campout, #18. The scribe didn't make it to the PLC so he took minutes for that and handed them into the scribe at the next meeting #19. A couple of boys were wanting to take a Citizenship in the Nation MB and so he dug through the supply cabinet to find enough pamphlets for the boys, #20. The Troop Website was out of date and so he sat down and put next year's calendar up on the site, #21. He noticed the QM didn't have an inventory list of equipment and the patrols were complaining about lack of supplies, so he inventoried the storage room and troop trailer and handed in an updated inventory list to the QM, and a list of missing/lost/short items to the CM treasurer to look into. #22. Knowing he was 4 weeks short, he asked the SM if he could organize and teach the leadership of the PLC in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method leadership instruction as a special project. The SM thought it might be a good supplement to their NYLT training and approved, #23, #24, #25 and #26.

 

So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement.

 

Yeah, right. That will sell!

 

This is why the POR patch means nothing to me! It's not what position you hold, it's the work you do that makes the man.

 

Stosh

Why do you assume the BOR judges the scout differently than you? Why would a competent SM allow a scout to consider his day to day normal duties to be considered for POR credit when nothing in the hand book supports it? The BSA troop program gives adults a lot of room to work within the guidelines. Your making this scout suffer for your defiance against a system "you" don't like. Did you warn his parents before you set their son on this trail? You preach boy independence, but do you have the courage to let the scout use the Scout Handbook to guide his scouting experience instead of following the Stosh Handbook? A little more Scout Handbook with a little less adult guidance and I don't think your scouts will find themselves in your straw man scenarios. Barry

[Stosh]

"Why do you assume the BOR judges the scout differently than you?" - there's no emoticon for "dripping with sarcasm", of course the BOR was please with what this boy did.

 

"Why would a competent SM allow a scout to consider his day to day normal duties to be considered for POR credit when nothing in the hand book supports it?" - this boy's normal duties was to be a member of his patrol, that's all.

 

"Your making this scout suffer for your defiance against a system "you" don't like." - First of all, this is only a suggestion I put out there for the boys who need POR and don't get elected into any "real" POR's due to the fact that they may not be popular enough to win some kind of election. I have had boys take two and even three terms (one scout) to get 26 weeks worth of effort. And when popular elected boy sit on their hands doing nothing except garnering POR credit for doing nothing, these boys step up and get the job done. While I don't expect any of my boys to do such things, it is an alternative to a creative energetic leader to get credit for effort put forth. I find it draws out servant leadership, creative thinking and problem solving for boys choosing to take this option. It also puts a bit of incentive in the elected POR boys to actually do their jobs so that someone else doesn't step in and get credit for it. Boys holding elected POR's have first chance to do their job. If they don't do it, it's fair game for any one else to step up and get the job done.

 

As far as the example I have outlined, it was done by one of my quieter boys that never got elected to anything, yet went on to Eagle at age 15 just before his 16th birthday. After he received his Eagle he refused the traditional JASM position and instead became TG for the NSP which he did for two years before aging out. He was never elected to SPL or PL positions, but filled in for them on various occasions.

 

"Did you warn his parents before you set their son on this trail?" - His dad was my ASM, Eagle Scout with 2 palms. I'm thinking he might have suggested some of the activities behind the scenes for his son, but he didn't say a word ever about what was going on.

 

I had another boy who was socially withdrawn, but came with an opening prayer and closing devotion for every meeting he attended. After about 6 months, the PLC decided he should be wearing the Chaplain's Aide patch on his shirt. Once he got the patch, he just kept doing what he had always enjoyed doing. There is no term limits for CA. After I was let go by that troop, I saw the boy at a camporee. He told me he was now SPL, but I noticed he still wore the CA patch.

 

No boy is ever expected to take this alternative route to fulfilling the POR requirement, it's just an option for those who might otherwise get passed by or hasn't the skills or opportunity to do the job consistently for a full term. I have had PL's not request signing off on their POR requirement because they got elected, but then in the middle of their term played basketball/baseball or something that took them away from the troop for a couple of months. If they did not get reelected as PL, they used this alternative suggestion to fill in a couple of months worth of work to honestly fulfill their POR expectations.

 

If the boy does the work, I sign off on the requirement. How HE defines that work is up to him. I have never had a boy define that as doing nothing for 6 months while wearing a patch.

 

Stosh

 

By the way, I have had handicapped boys earn POR in this manner. I wrote the whole process of what they could accomplish off as a SM project.

[Oldscout448]

The requirement says a boy has to SERVE in a POR for 6 months. Well, Johnny gets selected as APL for his 6 month term. Yet when it comes time for his BOR he walks in with his APL on his sleeve and the eyebrows all come up! So he gets questioned on it. He simply states that because he was APL he had lots of time on his hands and so he divided up his 6 months into 26 weeks. Numbers a piece of paper with 26 lines and fills them all in. He organized summer camp, registered the troop, lined up all the MB and SERVED as SPL for the week. That goes into line #1. Then the QM was going to be absent from the Spring Camporee so he got all the equipment for the patrols lined up for the weekend and filled in line #2. There were three service projects he organized for the troop on various Saturdays, so he filled in #3, #4, #5 as SPL. He got 5 lessons for the NSP lined up and taught, First Aid, knots, took them out and identified 10 plants and 10 animals on a hike, and got them to the pool for swimming. #6, #7, #8, #9, #10 filled in as Instructor. Then his PL missed 6 meetings due to school sports and so he filled in during his absence. That's #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16. The Webelos boys needed to come and visit the troop meeting, so he lined up a special program for them when they came to visit. #17 was marked as a SM Special Project. With no Chaplain's Aide available, he organized a prayer/devotion time for the winter campout, #18. The scribe didn't make it to the PLC so he took minutes for that and handed them into the scribe at the next meeting #19. A couple of boys were wanting to take a Citizenship in the Nation MB and so he dug through the supply cabinet to find enough pamphlets for the boys, #20. The Troop Website was out of date and so he sat down and put next year's calendar up on the site, #21. He noticed the QM didn't have an inventory list of equipment and the patrols were complaining about lack of supplies, so he inventoried the storage room and troop trailer and handed in an updated inventory list to the QM, and a list of missing/lost/short items to the CM treasurer to look into. #22. Knowing he was 4 weeks short, he asked the SM if he could organize and teach the leadership of the PLC in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method leadership instruction as a special project. The SM thought it might be a good supplement to their NYLT training and approved, #23, #24, #25 and #26.

 

So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement.

 

Yeah, right. That will sell!

 

This is why the POR patch means nothing to me! It's not what position you hold, it's the work you do that makes the man.

 

Stosh

Well, if I wanted to play Captain Queeg, the by the book nutcase in The Caine Mutiny I guess I could fail your scout.

But a boy like that is more than welcome in my troop anytime!

Oldscout

[Eagledad]

Your scenario failed the scout in the BOR. You imply it's because the adults in the BOR are heartless following the BSA guidelines when the scout and SM didn't. Your story changed quite a bit in your reply to me. You have some good advice to help leaders with their programs, but you feel the need to describe the other adults as heartless and controlling to make your point. Even more confusing is your post wasn't the context of the OPs question. The BSA program gives us a lot of latitude for helping scouts grow in the program, SM assigned PORs is just one of the tools to give us that latitude. I have given many SM assigned PORs to many mentally and physically handicapped scouts. And I also have wonderful success stories of disadvantaged boys who were a success in the troop as well as life now as an adult. One last thing about SM assigned PORs, the CC and parents need to be involved with the assignment to insure there is no confusion while the scout performs the duties and during BOR. Especially with handicapped scouts. In fact, depending on the severity of the handicap, I would also include the district commisioner in the process so that there wasnt any confusion at the EBOR down the road. Barry

[Sentinel947]

When a Scout does nothing in a POR I'm inclined to put much of the blame on the Scoutmaster for failing to motivate the Scout. Often Scouts don't know what they are getting into and need to be coached by the Scoutmaster and the older boys. If a Scout gets no feedback on his performance, he assumes everything is ok. When a Scout in my unit has been neglecting his duties, the Scoutmasters in my unit don't go looking for another Scout to do the job, we coach the Scout who's in the POR. We encourage and guide the A(SPL)s to work with that Scout. Isn't that our job? That doesn't invalidate how JBlake runs his unit. The Scoutmaster assigned project is purposefully vague to allow for exactly the things JBlake describes.

[Stosh]

Your scenario failed the scout in the BOR. You imply it's because the adults in the BOR are heartless following the BSA guidelines when the scout and SM didn't. Your story changed quite a bit in your reply to me. You have some good advice to help leaders with their programs, but you feel the need to describe the other adults as heartless and controlling to make your point. Even more confusing is your post wasn't the context of the OPs question. The BSA program gives us a lot of latitude for helping scouts grow in the program, SM assigned PORs is just one of the tools to give us that latitude. I have given many SM assigned PORs to many mentally and physically handicapped scouts. And I also have wonderful success stories of disadvantaged boys who were a success in the troop as well as life now as an adult. One last thing about SM assigned PORs, the CC and parents need to be involved with the assignment to insure there is no confusion while the scout performs the duties and during BOR. Especially with handicapped scouts. In fact, depending on the severity of the handicap, I would also include the district commisioner in the process so that there wasnt any confusion at the EBOR down the road. Barry

"So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement."

 

To restate the comment, the BOR of course granted the boy fulfillment of the POR, there was no question that the patch on his shirt had nothing to do with showing leadership in multiple POR areas during a 6 month period. As I stated, the boy became Eagle based on his performance in the various POR's he was not assigned to. Yet he never was elected to SPL or PL.

 

To tell a boy that because his PL elected buddy took him on as APL and he wasn't going to get any advancement credit in the next 6 months isn't an option in my troop. If the boy wants advancement and didn't get POR through the traditional method, his initiative and perseverance was recognized by the BOR as a totally acceptable alternative. In his SMC we covered what he had done and I had no problem signing off SMC, Scout Spirit, and POR fulfillment under these circumstances.

 

The "fall out" from this boy's actions motivated a lot of other boys to step up and start doing leadership within the troop as well. Boy's lacking POR took on "Instructor" for the younger boys to the point where they were standing in line to teach. How many times have we heard the older boys didn't help out the younger boys. Well, I don't seem to have that problem.

 

With others complaining about older boy lack of involvement, I have boy volunteering. No, it's not for 6 months at a time, but here and there, filling in where needed and helping out not only their patrols, but crossing lines to help out the other patrols, especially the younger ones who seem to offer the most opportunity to do so.

 

Communication between elected POR's and ad hoc POR boys has increased a lot. If a PL can't make an activity, why wouldn't the APL not get credit for doing the work on that activity in his absence. Acting PL and PL require the same amount of responsibility on the part of the boy. If an APL who isn't getting credit for advancement, when the QM can't make an activity, he steps up and does the work. Yet he doesn't get credit, whereas the absent QM does? That really doesn't add up in my "Stosh Handbook" book.

 

Remember, I was the SM who was replaced because I "expected too much leadership from the boys." It was the parents who complained, the most of the boys were having a great time. The only boys that complained, were those who didn't do anything in the troop and were not getting elected to POR's and weren't advancing. Parents of lazy scouts will always have a problem with that.

 

The handicapped boy was 34 years old, working on his Eagle, the Council sent him to me to help get him his Eagle. Out of all the SM's in the council, why would I be the chosen one? Because all my boys were basically running the troop, it left me and my ASM plenty of time to work with him on his special needs. He was really a nice guy and the boys thought it was great to have him part of the troop. I have no idea what happened to him after I was let go.

 

In the 4 years I was with that troop, the only adults that worked with the boys were me (SM) and the parent of three of the boys (ASM) who also happened to be an Eagle Scout with 2 palms as I mentioned before. If I or the ASM couldn't make an activity, a parent would step up to provide 2-deep adult leadership.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

When a Scout does nothing in a POR I'm inclined to put much of the blame on the Scoutmaster for failing to motivate the Scout. Often Scouts don't know what they are getting into and need to be coached by the Scoutmaster and the older boys. If a Scout gets no feedback on his performance, he assumes everything is ok. When a Scout in my unit has been neglecting his duties, the Scoutmasters in my unit don't go looking for another Scout to do the job, we coach the Scout who's in the POR. We encourage and guide the A(SPL)s to work with that Scout. Isn't that our job? That doesn't invalidate how JBlake runs his unit. The Scoutmaster assigned project is purposefully vague to allow for exactly the things JBlake describes.

"When a Scout does nothing in a POR I'm inclined to put much of the blame on the Scoutmaster for failing to motivate the Scout."

 

I don't. The influence of the SM is far less effective than the peer influence of the other boys.

 

As SM in a boy-led program, it is my responsibility to offer up multiple suggestions for the boy to consider. But the final decision on what he does must come from him or the job he does will be far from satisfactory. I create opportunities, what the boys do with them is up to them.

 

As far as my Expectations go. I have only one and every Webelos boy that comes into my troop gets the "I expect you to Eagle" speech, but it's up to you.

 

As a matter of fact, the #1 complaint I receive, especially from the younger boys is that I DON'T tell them what they have to do. There parents do that, their teachers do that, their pastors do that and for the first time in their lives, they are in control of their destiny and don't know what to do with it. Once they realize that, the suggestions start to make sense.

 

Stosh

[SSScout]

The requirement says a boy has to SERVE in a POR for 6 months. Well, Johnny gets selected as APL for his 6 month term. Yet when it comes time for his BOR he walks in with his APL on his sleeve and the eyebrows all come up! So he gets questioned on it. He simply states that because he was APL he had lots of time on his hands and so he divided up his 6 months into 26 weeks. Numbers a piece of paper with 26 lines and fills them all in. He organized summer camp, registered the troop, lined up all the MB and SERVED as SPL for the week. That goes into line #1. Then the QM was going to be absent from the Spring Camporee so he got all the equipment for the patrols lined up for the weekend and filled in line #2. There were three service projects he organized for the troop on various Saturdays, so he filled in #3, #4, #5 as SPL. He got 5 lessons for the NSP lined up and taught, First Aid, knots, took them out and identified 10 plants and 10 animals on a hike, and got them to the pool for swimming. #6, #7, #8, #9, #10 filled in as Instructor. Then his PL missed 6 meetings due to school sports and so he filled in during his absence. That's #11, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16. The Webelos boys needed to come and visit the troop meeting, so he lined up a special program for them when they came to visit. #17 was marked as a SM Special Project. With no Chaplain's Aide available, he organized a prayer/devotion time for the winter campout, #18. The scribe didn't make it to the PLC so he took minutes for that and handed them into the scribe at the next meeting #19. A couple of boys were wanting to take a Citizenship in the Nation MB and so he dug through the supply cabinet to find enough pamphlets for the boys, #20. The Troop Website was out of date and so he sat down and put next year's calendar up on the site, #21. He noticed the QM didn't have an inventory list of equipment and the patrols were complaining about lack of supplies, so he inventoried the storage room and troop trailer and handed in an updated inventory list to the QM, and a list of missing/lost/short items to the CM treasurer to look into. #22. Knowing he was 4 weeks short, he asked the SM if he could organize and teach the leadership of the PLC in the Green Bar Bill Patrol Method leadership instruction as a special project. The SM thought it might be a good supplement to their NYLT training and approved, #23, #24, #25 and #26.

 

So he turns this list into the BOR which they glance over and say. Nope, sorry, the APL patch on your shirt doesn't qualify you for the POR requirement.

 

Yeah, right. That will sell!

 

This is why the POR patch means nothing to me! It's not what position you hold, it's the work you do that makes the man.

 

Stosh

So the boy did not qualify as an APL, but , boy, did he qualify with "Specially Assigned Duties". I hope his PL would vouch that he did his APL stuff, too.

[Basementdweller]

 

 

Don't apologize for me.....

 

 

Scouting is a horrible shadow of what it once was......I am not even speaking of my time in scouting as the sun had already began to set on my time.........Fricken millennial Parents......Every body is special, deserves a title, a Trophy or a pat on the back for not crying because they didn't receive the Pink Elephant Petting Merit badge, even though he wasn't in attendance.

 

Helicopter parents........Cub leaders who don't understand or won't understand the intent of the boy scout program

 

Weak poorly trained Adult Leaders whether they gate keep or the ones that Participation equals completion bunch......Grow a spine, follow the guidelines for safety and advancement.

 

Or the Other Adults that think Boy Scouting is a Family outdoor adventure club....

 

 

 

So we have a mom here who is going to start meddling in the troop.......Just like she did in Tiger Cubs push her scout to the head of the line....

 

My Troop has grown and I am very sure it was not a good thing.....I am dealing with a few moms and grandmothers now....whose scout joined our unit less than 2 months ago and think they should be SPL, PL or even God for that matter.

 

So NO, I don't have any sympathy and a complete understanding of this MOM.......

 

 

So Guys, just curious here, In her scouts Football team.....How far would a phone call to the coach go to make her son Team Captain?????

 

NO WHERE.......

 

Ya, I am grumpy this morning........After spending an hour receiving abuse from a mom not unlike this yesterday......Our conversation ended with "No, I will not appoint your scout to any position and NO I will not assign him a project, His SPL or PL will assign him the position. Furthermore YOU are not to speak to the SPL, your scout will need to ask him for an assignment and If I hear of you speaking to the SPL on your scouts behalf, your scout will be asked to leave our unit."

 

 

If I deal with this mom again on this subject before the end of the week I think her scout will be asked to leave.

[Brewmeister]

Basement, it sounds like somebody needs to get out of scouting and it's not the boys in your troop. Your open disdain for anyone who doesn't agree with you is unlikely to be limited to here and I can only imagine the toxic environment that is taking hold within your troop as you berate and insult everyone who comes within striking distance. For the good of the boys and the program I'd highly encourage you to take a step back from scouting, and perhaps seek a little anger management therapy.

[Basementdweller]

Basement, it sounds like somebody needs to get out of scouting and it's not the boys in your troop. Your open disdain for anyone who doesn't agree with you is unlikely to be limited to here and I can only imagine the toxic environment that is taking hold within your troop as you berate and insult everyone who comes within striking distance. For the good of the boys and the program I'd highly encourage you to take a step back from scouting, and perhaps seek a little anger management therapy.

Nope, Just got ripped up one side and down the other by a mom for an hour yesterday.....I was trapped at a CO function so I could not simply hang up the phone or walk away from her.

 

I am not gonna do it again. She was out of line and I do not have to put up with it.

 

Her son is very new to scouting and the troop, he has yet to camp with us and has missed 1/3 of the meetings......

 

 

Brew, her scout isn't ready, He will be some day but that day is not today.

[Eagledad]

I can see leadership and advancement are very important to you stosh and that is the big difference between our two styles. See, what you describe as SM approved duties (is approved a fair word?) are normal expected actions in our troop. Our scouts aren’t expected to have the maturity of PORs for couple years. But they are expected to develop habits of a servant heart, or living by the scout oath and law from day one. I call it a servant lifestyle. Leadership in our troop is just way of expressing a servant heart, or what is normally called servant leadership. Where you and I differ a lot is how we develop the leadership skills. Not good or bad, just different. My philosophy for leadership development is developing leadership skills during normal troop activities while the scouts are young. Positions of responsibilities (POR) in my mind are only opportunities to practice the skills the scout has already learned, not where scouts go to learn leadership skills. The scouts in PORs are encouraged to reflect on their experience to understand their performance and change some of their habits to improve or grow. We expect them to naturally be servant leaders because they are using servant skills they practiced in their everyday scouting activities. On average, our scouts won’t be on the PLC until they are around 13 years old, and I really prefer PLs be at least 14 because that is the age where I’ve learned they get the most from their leadership experience. That is the age were they really grow. And it’s not that we adults hold them back, (our scouts have full control of their destiny in the program) but the patrol leader’s responsibility in our troop demands that level of maturity and the scouts know it. Of course we have our 12 year old natural leaders who by their nature accel faster. I really enjoy watching them in action, they are special. I’ve worked with hundreds of scouts, I’ve only had three or four natural leaders. You know what I’ve learned about natural leaders, they don’t care much about advancement. Rank is boring to them. Isn’t that interesting? I believe scouts between the age of 10 and 13 should focus more on adventure and less concerned with POR’s and advancement. Both those will come naturally at the pace of the scout’s personality. You are focused on scouts advancing and making sure your scouts progress isn’t held by lacking a POR. We are different in that I could care less about the scout’s long term goals in advancement, leadership or anything really. My obsession with scouting is developing the skills of a moral decision maker. I also obsess for a program that doesn’t get in the way of a scouts farthest ambition, and in the short term develops his confidence to go the distance. We have 14 year old Eagles, but the average of our scouts going to their EBOR is around between 16 and 17. If you were to ask them why they took so long, they will tell you they were busy. If an 11 year old scout has some ambition for leadership responsibility, the SPL will look for something that he can handle at his maturity like leading our monthly road side trash pickup or planning and leading a COH. There are many opportunities to practice being a team leader, so it’s not a barrier. But personally, I would really rather the 11 year old lead a hike in the woods or even go fishing. I know how boys dream and the dream of an 11 year old is different from the dreams of a 16 year old. The program can handle both, so I don’t like to hurry the one at risk of sacrificing the other. We have almost as many scout between the ages of 14 to 17 as we have 10 to 13 years old. It’s interesting while I know we are very much the same, it’s our differences that give us very different perspectives of scouting. Not good or bad, just different. Barry

[Stosh]

Totally agree, Barry.

 

You are fortunate to have a broad range of scouts at different levels of development. How you develop those skills work well for your program and that is a good thing.

 

I on the other hand, have 5 boys in a brand new troop and they are all 11 years old. I can't wait for 2 years for them to develop their leadership skills to the level of your boys. I need it now. So I have boys doing leadership far beyond their "maturity" level. Some naturally come by it easily, others are more reserved and unsure. With time that will change.

 

I could, for a couple of years, treat my troop as Webelos III, but the tradition of adult led would become engrained and I would then spend the rest of my tenure here reversing the monster I created.

 

So, I start my untrained, inexperienced boys right out of the blocks with assumed leadership. A few tricks there and there to get them started and then let them adjust to their own personal styles. If I postpone leadership opportunities of the POR for 2 years waiting for them to mature, I miss a ton of opportunities. I don't set the boys up to fail, but I do provide opportunities for them to consider.

 

Last week we talked about fun activities they could do. One boy suggested swimming. His buddies laughed because in Wisconsin, the last thing anyone is thinking about is swimming. Instead of telling the boy it's -10 outside, I tossed out the think tank process for them to come up with some ideas of what possibly might be some options for going swimming. The boy suggesting the swimming said there are indoor pools in town. Then I suggested the high school pool 5 blocks from where we meet as a troop has a pool. I suggested the boy might want to call the high school find out when there is open swimming and how much it cost. He'll be reporting back tonight on what he has found out. Another boy suggested camping at the council camp and he's checking on availability and costs. These are boys that have yet to earn their Scout rank.

 

I do not suggest outings, but the boys do. If at this age they can't think through the how of the process. From me, they get questions to provoke their thinking processes and they can draw their own conclusions as to what the next step has to be. I toss out ideas when they are really stumped, but that is not very often. If given a chance to think, they usually come up with some good options.

 

When the boy come back with the campout information, my next question will be, "What about getting there? Everyone meet there or are you going to carpool? What about meals? etc. These are questions adults will naturally ask before any event. Why can't these boys develop that skill right from the beginning? I'm thinking that by the time these boys are 13, I won't have to ask those questions anymore. If some new scouts are doing planning, the older scouts will be able to ask those questions for me.

 

If adults know how it works and never tell the boys, they will never learn to lead and think like an adult. So this begs the question, when does one begin that process? For me, it's the sooner, the better. If teaching leadership with the EDGE method, the quicker one gets to the hands-on part, the more engaged the boy will be in the learning process.

 

It was interesting to note that when I have the boys demonstrate their skill on TF-FC requirements, I tell them that I know nothing about tying a square knot for example. So the boys have a routine, they stand up, introduce themselves, tell me what they are about to teach, demonstrate it, then help me tie the knot. That simple formula the boys all know pretty well now. One of the boys was looking forward into the upper rank advancements, and said, "Hey, that's the EDGE method." Within 2-3 weeks, all my boys will be able to fulfill the expectations of the Instructor POR and yet they are only 11 years old. By the time they are 13, they will be old-hat with that process.

 

I know from 40 years of working with youth that they are far more capable of leadership than we give them credit for.

 

Stosh