When can a Life scout get his Eagle Project Approved and begin work on project?

[Sentinel947]

I think "getting it over with" was probably the wrong term. I think start working on it is the better term. My observation is that Eagles who do their project as soon as they hit Life tend to stay more active in Scouts post Eagle--the ones who sit at Life for a while tend to leave when they Eagle. My son just Eagled, and he has grand plans of staying with the troop. Family Life, Personal Fitness adn Pers Management are easier if you do them at teh same time. It's not a bad thing. It's just easier to keep trackof.

 

Twocub, do you have high school aged children? If not, then that explains why you don't believe in finishing Eagle before high school. There is a big dropoff in scouting among high school students--there's simply less available time. My advice, though, isn't finish Eagle before high school, but get as close to Eagle as possible before high school.

I don't think Perdidochas is arguing to get Eagle and be done as early as possible. Earning Eagle later can just as easily be a get Life Scout at 13, disappear till 17, grab the bird and go.

 

TwoCub: I think the path I took to Eagle is fine and its surprisingly similar to your sons (Although I think I was closer to the deadline..). I think how Perdidochas Son is earning it is great. Twocubdad I think how your sons earned it is excellent as well. The point is that the Scout earning Eagle spends time in the program, gets the experiences out of it and gives back a bit.

 

I don't like the "What age is best to earn Eagle" discussion, because that question is very dependent on the Scout in question.

 

I've been involved with Boy Scouting for 6 years as a youth, and I'm closing in on my third year as an Adult leader far more rapidly than I'd like to be...

 

I've seen Young Eagles grab the Bird and Run. I've seen young Eagles stay involved in the program till they aged out. I've seen Scouts earn life at 13, leave till 17, then come back to get Eagle and disappear. (I'm absolutely not a fan of this, but it's very common.) I've seen Scouts earn Life at 13 and stay active with the Troop up until earning their Eagles at the last possible moment.

 

It depends on the Scout. We as Scoutmasters/Assistant Scoutmasters/Parents need to encourage Scouts to stay involved with the program regardless of whether they are are young and on the fast track to Eagle at 14 or on track to earn Eagle at 17. When they earn Eagle isn't nearly as important as what they are doing in the program. At least that's how I view it.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

[Sentinel947]

There is a Troop in my District that requires Scouts to do the requirements in order. In other words, they won't allow a Life Scout to start his Project until his MBs and PoR requirements are completed (or so I've been told, that is).

I'm pretty sure if a Scout or Parent called them out on that practice they'd be getting a slap on the wrist from the district or council.

[perdidochas]

There is a Troop in my District that requires Scouts to do the requirements in order. In other words, they won't allow a Life Scout to start his Project until his MBs and PoR requirements are completed (or so I've been told, that is).

Do they do this for all of the ranks? I would be surprised if they ever get eagles.

[perdidochas]

I think "getting it over with" was probably the wrong term. I think start working on it is the better term. My observation is that Eagles who do their project as soon as they hit Life tend to stay more active in Scouts post Eagle--the ones who sit at Life for a while tend to leave when they Eagle. My son just Eagled, and he has grand plans of staying with the troop. Family Life, Personal Fitness adn Pers Management are easier if you do them at teh same time. It's not a bad thing. It's just easier to keep trackof.

 

Twocub, do you have high school aged children? If not, then that explains why you don't believe in finishing Eagle before high school. There is a big dropoff in scouting among high school students--there's simply less available time. My advice, though, isn't finish Eagle before high school, but get as close to Eagle as possible before high school.

I'm not saying earn the Eagle as soon as possible. I'm saying get as much towards Eagle as you can when your time demands allow it.

 

My oldest plays football, does track and field, plays in youth orchestra, is active in the OA. I'm glad he has finished his Eagle. My oldest son is now at a point where he misses Scouts when he can't attend a meeting (primarily due to youth orchestra meeting for 6 week periods in the fall and spring on the same night/time as scouts). He's going to become the LNT trainer for the Trooop, and is already the Troop life Guard. That said, he's going to have a much easier time at juggling than my younger son, who's about to start an International Baccalaureate program.

 

I don't see how encouraging Eagle before high school is any worse (and it's probably better) than having Life Scouts that drop out for a few years, come back at 17 to Eagle and then leave. That is the general pattern I've seen with Boy Scouts.

[EagleScout441]

There is a Troop in my District that requires Scouts to do the requirements in order. In other words, they won't allow a Life Scout to start his Project until his MBs and PoR requirements are completed (or so I've been told, that is).

I don't know about the other ranks, I doubt they do it for Tenderfoot--First Class.

[Twocubdad]

I think "getting it over with" was probably the wrong term. I think start working on it is the better term. My observation is that Eagles who do their project as soon as they hit Life tend to stay more active in Scouts post Eagle--the ones who sit at Life for a while tend to leave when they Eagle. My son just Eagled, and he has grand plans of staying with the troop. Family Life, Personal Fitness adn Pers Management are easier if you do them at teh same time. It's not a bad thing. It's just easier to keep trackof.

 

Twocub, do you have high school aged children? If not, then that explains why you don't believe in finishing Eagle before high school. There is a big dropoff in scouting among high school students--there's simply less available time. My advice, though, isn't finish Eagle before high school, but get as close to Eagle as possible before high school.

I can agree with that last point. Earning Eagle in the eighth grade is no better than dropping out in the eight grade and showing a few months before your 18th birthday to finishing checking the box. In both cases you've only been in Scouts for maybe 3.5 or 4 years. My goal for the Scouts I serve is to help them get the most they can from the program. That is accomplished over their full seven or so years of eligibility.

[Gone]

Sorry for the tread-jack, but I did not want to start another thread since I think this question might be related.

 

The Eagle workbook requires the draft proposal to be signed off which indicates approval to begin the project. The detailed project plan, while not requiring approval (which I read as rquiring a review and signature), is alledged to be used as the template for the project's execution...or so it would seem from the excerpt below.

 

1. [*=1]It provides sufficient opportunity to meet the Eagle Scout service project requirement. You must show that planning, development, and leadership will take place; and how the three factors will benefit a religious institution, a school, or your community.[*=1]It appears to be feasible. You must show the project is realistic for you to complete.[*=1]Safety issues will be addressed. You must show you have an understanding of what must be done to guard against injury, and what will be done if someone does get hurt.[*=1]Action steps for further detailed planning are included. You must make a list of the key steps you will take to make sure your plan has enough details to be carried out successfully.[*=1]You are on the right track with a reasonable chance for a positive experience.
   

Your proposal need only be detailed enough to show a reviewer that you can meet the tests above. If you find in order to do that, the proposal must be lengthy and complicated, your project might be more complex than necessary.

 

I have found the draft proposals to be too light, despite the fact they meet the requirements outlined above. Because they are light the document does little to help the Scout develop the detail needed for the detailed "final plan". Lastly, when Scouts get those draft plan signatures they are usuall off and running with their projects, perhaps paying only little attention to doing the final plan prior to project execution or even doing it after the fact.

 

So here's my question. I suspect the answer is that the Eagle "coach" (or whatever) should ask to see the final plan before project start. Assuming that is not done, does anyone see a reason why the SM could not ask to see a copy of the final plan before they sign off on the draft plan? How have others handled this?

[qwazse]

My take on all of this: The draft is not supposed to help the scout with the final plan. It's just supposed to let everybody know that the scout wants to do "project x" and everybody is in agreement with him developing and implementing a plan to do it. It's between the scout and the "Service Project MBC" (sorry, getting sick of the term Eagle Coach) how much feedback he should get and how solid his plan should be before implementation. Different projects require different levels and types of preparation.

 

Thus, the draft is a blue-card of sorts.

 

That said, our district advancement chair is fairly meticulous about projects, and requests that boys meet with him personally. He likes to see drafts in pretty good condition before giving the go-ahead.

[Stosh]

I start my new boys thinking about their Eagle projects right away when they cross over from Webelos. This way, it gives explanation to why their are organizing a camporee, or why they are doing what they do to get the boys to summer camp, or why they line up and lead a service project, etc. All of these "training" exercises go well in identifying what they are capable of doing and what they might like to do for the big one for Eagle.

 

Secondly it focuses the boys on a long-range plan and the multiple steps along the way that are necessary to learn to lead a project like that. Is there money involved with your project? How well do you like fundraising? Not at all? Then maybe you need to consider something else. You like the service projects? How about doing a really big one because you've learned how to do the small ones.

 

Third, they learn to do the paperwork for each of their little projects so that when the big paperwork comes down the line it's no big surprise.

 

Fourth, through the various service projects and other activities they take leadership on, they network with people who have some really good ideas for Eagle projects.

 

My boys generally are ready to turn in their Eagle project proposal the day after they get their Life rank.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

M-brau,

 

Unfortunately, according to the letter of the G2A, once the proposal is approved, there is no requirement the Scout have any contact whatsoever with anyone in the troop or council before beginning the project. The proposal is the only point of contact before submitting his final EP report. It is equally unfortunate that the Eagle Scout Bill of Rights (or whatever that page is called) instructs Scouts and their parents they should ignore any Scoutmasters or local Scouters suggestions contrary to the minimalist national policy. I don’t think there is an 1-800 hotline for squealing on your Scoutmaster, but I’m sure that was an oversight

 

You are absolutely correct the proposal section of the EP book is terribly inadequate. My understanding is national was trying to correct two problems when it developed the current proposal format. One was some councils, our included, required insanely detailed eagle proposals. Fifty and sixty pages was not uncommon. One of my ASMs is a Six-Sigma instructor and he used to shake his head in disbelief. Actually, National did a good job of solving that.

 

The second problem was with Scouts who invested tremendous amounts of time into a proposal only to have the basic project idea rejected. Consequently they came up with the two-step, proposal/final plan process under which the conceptual proposal may be approved with little or no thought toward implementation.

 

But like you, I have an issue the only approval point being at a very conceptual stage. Consequently I very strongly suggest to our Scouts they include in their proposal most of the planning asked for in the “final plan†section. Our troop leaders have enough experience with Eps that we know what will fly with the district – frankly, our expectations for an EP exceed those of the district. We’ve never had a project rejected under the new process and, with one exception, all the Eagles and their parents are appreciative of the advice and input we provide our Scouts.

[Gone]

@Twocubdad, your approach is exactly what our unit follows now. District is not a problem and our EPs exceed what they are looking for. Sadly, that bar is not very high. My concern was getting the Scouts to input as much detail as possible in their draft plan, rather than the one sentence responses we have been getting lately. That's why is was thinking that, since there is nothing I can find in the documentation prohibiting it, I would hold the approval signature n the draft proposal until after we saw the detailed final plan. That process would seem to be in line with BSA's directive around not approving the final plan, but would still allow the units to see the additional thought the scouts need to demonstrate. The other side of that rock is more scouts having to re-do their project for lack of leadership as a result of poor planning. If a scout (or his parents) want to blow the whistle on me to District, they can be my guest. My unit won't be handing out Eagle. We do that too much (collectively) as an organization already. Thanks for the feedback.

[Gone]

My take on all of this: The draft is not supposed to help the scout with the final plan. It's just supposed to let everybody know that the scout wants to do "project x" and everybody is in agreement with him developing and implementing a plan to do it. It's between the scout and the "Service Project MBC" (sorry' date=' getting sick of the term Eagle Coach) how much feedback he should get and how solid his plan should be before implementation. Different projects require different levels and types of preparation. Thus, the draft is a blue-card of sorts. That said, our district advancement chair is fairly meticulous about projects, and requests that boys meet with him personally. He likes to see drafts in pretty good condition before giving the go-ahead.[/quote'] We do that now. We require the guys to document their projects well before they get signatures. The problem is two-fold. First, recently scouts have been doing the bare minimum in documenting their proposal. Second, they are almost entirely NOT doing their final project plans prior to doing their project. This has lead to some very, very weak projects which barely meet the requirements. Our District will literally sign anything, so we are trying to see how we can compel the scouts to complete their draft and final plan before doing their project. My answer to Twocubdad is our current approach which I believe still adheres to BSA procedures. I am interested to see how other units handle this. Thanks for the reply.

[Stosh]

Maybe it's time to add to the EDGE training, a bit of Lean A-3 training.

 

Actually for project planning, it's not a bad option.

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

Yes, experienced troops eventually learn the system and dodge the problem areas, but new troops or new adult leadership seem to always fall in the traps. I was always trying to encourage our district to provide Eagle Project training so the units would understand what is expected of them and also give the units a chance to give comments. I suggested each unit be to send at least one adult once a year. In our council every district is different and it's hard even for the Council Training Committee to know the different expectations.

 

Our troop had one family transfer in from another state who had a son ready to do his project. In her previous district, scouts attended two approval meetings, one to learn the expectations and the other to get the approval. I actually like that idea. But without asking anyone in our troop, mom and her son attended our district Eagle Project approval meeting and she ended up leaving in tears. When I heard about it, I called the District Committee Chair and eventually had the person who caused the problem removed himself. I know the leader well and it was a misunderstanding, but he knew he handled it wrong and voluntarily took himself off the board.

 

In their effort to be fair, members of boards tend to get too set in their ways without understanding the justifications for policies set by previous members. I saw the problem across our council. A little training would go a long way to helping everyone understand the system.

 

Barry

[perdidochas]

@Twocubdad' date=' your approach is exactly what our unit follows now. District is not a problem and our EPs exceed what they are looking for. Sadly, that bar is not very high. My concern was getting the Scouts to input as much detail as possible in their draft plan, rather than the one sentence responses we have been getting lately. That's why is was thinking that, since there is nothing I can find in the documentation prohibiting it, I would hold the approval signature n the draft proposal until after we saw the detailed final plan. That process would seem to be in line with BSA's directive around not approving the final plan, but would still allow the units to see the additional thought the scouts need to demonstrate. The other side of that rock is more scouts having to re-do their project for lack of leadership as a result of poor planning. If a scout (or his parents) want to blow the whistle on me to District, they can be my guest. My unit won't be handing out Eagle. We do that too much (collectively) as an organization already. Thanks for the feedback.[/quote']

 

Hmm, can't the CC and SM simply refuse to sign the draft until it is written up to at least minimal expectations? I know my oldest had to do at least two or three drafts of his draft proposal before he could get sign offs from the troop and the project beneficiary.