Membership Continues Decline

[Cambridgeskip]

Your correct Huzzar sorry about that. Either way who would have excepted him of being a pedophilia? He had children and a wife he was a good family man who helped out in his community. The question is if he was a pedophilia who can you trust? That is the real danger and threat to the boys not some openly gay adult leader.

Qwaze - you are right that having mixed sex leadership is a good idea if you have a mix of boys and girls. However, with the experience of taking girls to camp I can tell you that you've got the right answer for the wrong reasons! It's nothing to do with attraction. If you are an adolescent girl who has some kind of injury or problem in an intimate area you'd probably prefer to gouge your own eyes out with a spoon than have me or you treat it. It's a woman you want on the scene. I have had a 10 year old girl take the skin off her back which required her taking her top off to treat. And very grateful I was to have a female leader on the scene to deal with it. (Not half as grateful as the scout was!)

 

Similarly, when I was a scout, I got stung on my behind by a wasp. (I now check down the toilet bowl before sitting down. Let's face it, it could have been a LOT worse!!!) Again I would rather have put lit matches under my finger nails than have a woman treat it.

[EmberMike]

It National was a car dealer, their strategy could be summed up thusly:

 

Take the most popular, dependable, high-selling cars, and hide them in the back of the lot. When those are gone, don't order more. Instead, promote a lot of shiny but under-powered, undesirable cars. Act surprised when sales drop. But do nothing to bring back that popular car.

 

Outdoor adventure, whether it's a day hike on Saturday or a Philmont trek, is the key to recruiting and retaining scouts. Just as true today as it was a century ago.

 

Successful units/councils get that, and the results prove it.

 

Sustainability merit badge won't get it done.

The BSA has always had adventure to offer kids, they just package it terribly and deliver it equally poorly. They've always tried too hard to seem "cool", bringing skateboards and BMX into jambos and designing marketing materials to try and look modern and hip. But kids know when they're being sold something fake. And they're really turned off when they show up at jambo looking for adventure and have to wait in line all day to do anything.

 

Back-to-basics works. Offer kids simple outdoor adventures and they'll give it a try. It doesn't have to include the action sport of the moment or slick marketing hype, just authentic adventure and outdoor activities, preferably stuff in the woods.

[SM bob]

The gay issue is a red herring of membership woes. There are no gay cubscouts, they haven't hit puberty yet. Until a Boy Scout hits puberty he can't be gay. Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15. None of his friends (fellow scouts that he has been camping with for years) will care that he is gay. The scouts don't care. There is nothing sexual about rock climbing, cycling, hiking, archery, guns, or camping. Scouts don't sleep in tents with leaders but with their friends. The gay issue is irrelevant. Scouting membership has declined because most troops and packs do not have activities outside of the meeting room. When they do it's not fun. I am in a dysfunctional pack and a heathy active troop. The difference in programs is that the boy scout parents get out of the way and let the kids have fun. Most scouts enjoy getting away from home one weekend a month, being independent, sitting around a camp fire, playing with knifes, bows, and guns. The program had it right a 100 yrs ago. Let's not try to square the wheel.

[Huzzar]

Your correct Huzzar sorry about that. Either way who would have excepted him of being a pedophilia? He had children and a wife he was a good family man who helped out in his community. The question is if he was a pedophilia who can you trust? That is the real danger and threat to the boys not some openly gay adult leader.

Yes, heterosexual female leaders have led to inappropriate contact, especially at summer camp. Ask your SE how many women get sent home every year.

 

As a general rule, 16 year old boys aren't interested in suing if they are hit on by an 18 year old female camp staff member.

[EmberMike]

The gay issue is a red herring of membership woes. There are no gay cubscouts, they haven't hit puberty yet. Until a Boy Scout hits puberty he can't be gay. Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15. None of his friends (fellow scouts that he has been camping with for years) will care that he is gay. The scouts don't care. There is nothing sexual about rock climbing, cycling, hiking, archery, guns, or camping. Scouts don't sleep in tents with leaders but with their friends. The gay issue is irrelevant. Scouting membership has declined because most troops and packs do not have activities outside of the meeting room. When they do it's not fun. I am in a dysfunctional pack and a heathy active troop. The difference in programs is that the boy scout parents get out of the way and let the kids have fun. Most scouts enjoy getting away from home one weekend a month, being independent, sitting around a camp fire, playing with knifes, bows, and guns. The program had it right a 100 yrs ago. Let's not try to square the wheel.

The wheel is already showing some flat sides. But maybe we're finally starting to look in the right direction. I view the end of the belt loops in cub scouting as a positive step in that direction. Some of those belt loops were so ridiculous, so far outside of the scope of scouting.

 

I'd suggest that some culling of the merit badge list wouldn't be a bad idea either. Do we really need 130+ badges available? I don't think so, not when they're for things that have nothing to do with the intent and purpose of scouting.

 

The BSA seems to feel like they're missing out when they don't offer things related to what kids are doing outside of scouting. So we see Game Design merit badge, Multi Media merit badge, Digital Technology merit badge, Advanced Computing merit badge. Kids don't go to scouting for that stuff. Scouting is supposed to be different compared to what they're exposed to at home and at school. But lately, it seems like just more of the same. Indoor meetings, less camping, more badges and activities that are focused on science and tech.

 

And parents don't want their kids going to scouting for that stuff either. What's the number 1 reason parents look to scouting for their kids? I suspect it would be something to do with getting their kids outside more, introducing them to camping, getting them away from those video games, etc.

[packsaddle]

The gay issue is a red herring of membership woes. There are no gay cubscouts, they haven't hit puberty yet. Until a Boy Scout hits puberty he can't be gay. Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15. None of his friends (fellow scouts that he has been camping with for years) will care that he is gay. The scouts don't care. There is nothing sexual about rock climbing, cycling, hiking, archery, guns, or camping. Scouts don't sleep in tents with leaders but with their friends. The gay issue is irrelevant. Scouting membership has declined because most troops and packs do not have activities outside of the meeting room. When they do it's not fun. I am in a dysfunctional pack and a heathy active troop. The difference in programs is that the boy scout parents get out of the way and let the kids have fun. Most scouts enjoy getting away from home one weekend a month, being independent, sitting around a camp fire, playing with knifes, bows, and guns. The program had it right a 100 yrs ago. Let's not try to square the wheel.

"Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15."

Heck, I didn't 'like' girls until about that age, maybe a little earlier, hard to remember exactly. But I must have been gay until then.

I think that if most parents were completely honest, part of their interest in scouting is to get the boys 'out of their hair' for a weekend or a week once in a while...at little or no cost.

[perdidochas]

The gay issue is a red herring of membership woes. There are no gay cubscouts, they haven't hit puberty yet. Until a Boy Scout hits puberty he can't be gay. Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15. None of his friends (fellow scouts that he has been camping with for years) will care that he is gay. The scouts don't care. There is nothing sexual about rock climbing, cycling, hiking, archery, guns, or camping. Scouts don't sleep in tents with leaders but with their friends. The gay issue is irrelevant. Scouting membership has declined because most troops and packs do not have activities outside of the meeting room. When they do it's not fun. I am in a dysfunctional pack and a heathy active troop. The difference in programs is that the boy scout parents get out of the way and let the kids have fun. Most scouts enjoy getting away from home one weekend a month, being independent, sitting around a camp fire, playing with knifes, bows, and guns. The program had it right a 100 yrs ago. Let's not try to square the wheel.

I'm of two opinions about some of those badges. First, I hear my now Eagle talking about them, and he'd like to earn some for his palms.Second, Scouting should be about outings.

 

I don't think the choice of merit badges is an important issue. I think a more important issue is the risk aversion of National, and the way that inhibits adventure. For example, a few months ago, we were camping by this little river, and I brought my two kayaks. We would shuttle the boys up two miles to a launch, and let boys without adult supervision kayak those two miles. I realize in hindsight that we broke the rules. However, I still feel the boys were safe. Every group had two kayaks (buddy boats) and every kayak had two boys. Myself and another adult made the first run, to kind of scout it out. All boys involved had their swimming merit badge (one on every trip had lifesaving MB), and I had personally seen them all swim in a troop done Swim test. Most were First Class and above. It was a good adventure, that IMHO, wouldn't have been as much of an adventure if two adults had been on every trip.

 

In my short scout career in the 1970s, it wasn't uncommon for a group of boys led by senior boys to do things like that. I wish it were still that way.

[nextgenscouter1]

I think it is very funny, when people say the membership will drop if they let gay adult leaders in. I would be more suspicious of a heterosexual man who wanted to help in the program for a few reasons.

The first is how many openly gay men would join the BSA to molest boys? You wouldn't want people to know that you were gay, and many of the people who molest children are married men. For example, Sandusky was married with biological children. Also if you are that worried then your son shouldn't be playing sport, going outside without a parent, or be in school. There is a chance that someone might do something to your son after all.

The reason I think the BSA membership is falling is simple. Boy Scouts isn't "cool" and it can't compete with the virtual world. In Philadelphia I rarely see kids outside playing they are on their electronics.

I also think Rick is spot on, we have lost kids due to sports, and if your troop requires a certain number of camping trips per year. That will turn off scouts who have other obligation.

I have never understood the issue people have with allowing gay scouts and leaders in, and I don't view it as a good reason to leave scouting.

accidently posted this on the next page. So no point in rewriting it

[nextgenscouter1]

Your correct Huzzar sorry about that. Either way who would have excepted him of being a pedophilia? He had children and a wife he was a good family man who helped out in his community. The question is if he was a pedophilia who can you trust? That is the real danger and threat to the boys not some openly gay adult leader.

Huzzer it seems to me you are deliberate being obtuse the point is for years before there were warning sings nobody excepted it. He was held up as a model and the larger community never excepted him since he didn't fit their profile.

[Sentinel947]

The gay issue is a red herring of membership woes. There are no gay cubscouts, they haven't hit puberty yet. Until a Boy Scout hits puberty he can't be gay. Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15. None of his friends (fellow scouts that he has been camping with for years) will care that he is gay. The scouts don't care. There is nothing sexual about rock climbing, cycling, hiking, archery, guns, or camping. Scouts don't sleep in tents with leaders but with their friends. The gay issue is irrelevant. Scouting membership has declined because most troops and packs do not have activities outside of the meeting room. When they do it's not fun. I am in a dysfunctional pack and a heathy active troop. The difference in programs is that the boy scout parents get out of the way and let the kids have fun. Most scouts enjoy getting away from home one weekend a month, being independent, sitting around a camp fire, playing with knifes, bows, and guns. The program had it right a 100 yrs ago. Let's not try to square the wheel.

Perdidochas, where did you find the in guide to safe Scouting that what you did was wrong. At least as far as hiking or backpacking goes, what ya'll did is completely ok. Is there different rules for water activities?

[Huzzar]

Your correct Huzzar sorry about that. Either way who would have excepted him of being a pedophilia? He had children and a wife he was a good family man who helped out in his community. The question is if he was a pedophilia who can you trust? That is the real danger and threat to the boys not some openly gay adult leader.

Don't call me stupid because I don't come to the same conclusion as you! Sandusky wasn't given a pass because the world thought he was a heterosexual family man, he was given a pass because he was high up in the football program at Penn State. That's why the university is paying millions in compensation to victims. The leadership at PSU knew in the mid-nineties, if not earlier, that Sandusky was taking 10 year old boys into the showers with him. NO HETEROSEXUAL FAMILY MAN WOULD DO THAT.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

The who gay thing has nothing to do with this issue, just as the policy change had no real impact on any Boy Scout or Cub Scout. The three key elements that have caused our decline have been clearly identified in this thread:

 

1. Our program became outdated, and the attempt to update it went sideways (BSA needs to admit this and go back to the basics, and build a better update, not patch the broken one).

2. Our only true selling point, to the scouts, is real life adventure ... something you can't get behind a controller and keyboard, and fear of liability has watered down this element so far that our founders would be ashamed.

3. Many adults think this is their program. This is a program of youth, by youth, for youth; as long as no laws a broken, and no one is going to get hurt, adults need to sit down and shut up. (I am an adult BTW)

[perdidochas]

The gay issue is a red herring of membership woes. There are no gay cubscouts, they haven't hit puberty yet. Until a Boy Scout hits puberty he can't be gay. Once the boy realizes he does not like girls he is about 14-15. None of his friends (fellow scouts that he has been camping with for years) will care that he is gay. The scouts don't care. There is nothing sexual about rock climbing, cycling, hiking, archery, guns, or camping. Scouts don't sleep in tents with leaders but with their friends. The gay issue is irrelevant. Scouting membership has declined because most troops and packs do not have activities outside of the meeting room. When they do it's not fun. I am in a dysfunctional pack and a heathy active troop. The difference in programs is that the boy scout parents get out of the way and let the kids have fun. Most scouts enjoy getting away from home one weekend a month, being independent, sitting around a camp fire, playing with knifes, bows, and guns. The program had it right a 100 yrs ago. Let's not try to square the wheel.

From Safety Afloat in g2ss.

Qualified Supervision

All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the wellbeing and safety of those in his or her care and who is trained in and committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat.

[perdidochas]

The who gay thing has nothing to do with this issue, just as the policy change had no real impact on any Boy Scout or Cub Scout. The three key elements that have caused our decline have been clearly identified in this thread:

 

1. Our program became outdated, and the attempt to update it went sideways (BSA needs to admit this and go back to the basics, and build a better update, not patch the broken one).

2. Our only true selling point, to the scouts, is real life adventure ... something you can't get behind a controller and keyboard, and fear of liability has watered down this element so far that our founders would be ashamed.

3. Many adults think this is their program. This is a program of youth, by youth, for youth; as long as no laws a broken, and no one is going to get hurt, adults need to sit down and shut up. (I am an adult BTW)

I pretty much agree. That said, my local council had a 12% loss of scouts. Part of that is that we have plenty of units that are in disrepair, and I don't think the gay policy and the increase in dues helped any. My troop is in good shape, but I fear for the council.

[EmberMike]

The who gay thing has nothing to do with this issue, just as the policy change had no real impact on any Boy Scout or Cub Scout. The three key elements that have caused our decline have been clearly identified in this thread:

 

1. Our program became outdated, and the attempt to update it went sideways (BSA needs to admit this and go back to the basics, and build a better update, not patch the broken one).

2. Our only true selling point, to the scouts, is real life adventure ... something you can't get behind a controller and keyboard, and fear of liability has watered down this element so far that our founders would be ashamed.

3. Many adults think this is their program. This is a program of youth, by youth, for youth; as long as no laws a broken, and no one is going to get hurt, adults need to sit down and shut up. (I am an adult BTW)

#2 is spot on the money. It is pure insanity to me that the BSA prefers to bring technology into the program instead of emphasizing the real thing, not the technological attempt at adventure. Instead of the gaming merit badge, where was the marketing push to say, "Like adventure video games? We've got REAL adventure."

 

You're right, what's left of the adventure component of the BSA is so watered down it's barely a reflection of what once was.