Churches Evicting Troops, and a new organization

[Sentinel947]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Moose tracker. When did Pope Benedict push for uprisings over gay marriage? Protests maybe.

 

As for Catholicism and BSA. The Church might be less supportive of adult leaders who are openly in a gay marriage. A non married homosexual would be fine.

 

I don't agree with your statements about Pope Benedict. He was exactly what the church needed at the time. The Church needed a theologian to repair liturgical confusion that came after Vatican 2 and Benedict was the guy. Which is where the updated Catechism I cited earlier came from.

 

Pope Benedict got a pretty unfair shake from the media. At least in my opinion.

[T2Eagle]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Hey Eagledad, I'm pretty sure I do spend all my time with sinners. We have a big meeting every Sunday, come on by and we'll scooch over in the pew and make room for ya.(:

[moosetracker]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Well uprising may be strong, but he definitely mixed religion with politics and tried to force Catholics to all organize and protest and vote a certain way.. Dictating that all the priest read a certain political speech at all their services for a week, regardless of if the priest believed it or not.. My husband got his political speech dosed out at a Catholic funeral of all places!!.. I guess some priests who got into the speech too much expounded on it likening Obama to Hitlar or Stalin.. Other brave priest, noted what they were required to read, and then gave a sermon on why it was wrong to give a sermon on such crap..

 

For me Pope Benedict was a scary dude.. He said that God spoke to him and told him to step aside.. If so.. Thank you God..

 

Converting your religious members into a political army is wrong and dangerous.. Thankfully it all ended when they discovered the Republicans agenda against the poor.. It calmed down to both parties have pluses and minuses so make your own decision.

 

Then Pope Benedict left and this new pope is a breath of fresh air, even for us non-Catholics.. Especially those of us who fear religious leaders using their pulpit to create political armies in the name of God.

 

We still have the Conservative Protestants engaging in politicizing their religion though, so I still worry about them.. But my worries about Catholics have calmed down.

[Sentinel947]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Here's where Catholicism and Protestantism are different. There are plenty of issues where Catholics are free to have an opinion. There are some things that if Catholics don't believe them, you are denying central tenants of the religion. The Trinity, The Eucharist, the sanctity of life. (No death penalty, no euthanasia, no abortion, yes to social charity.)

 

The reason Catholics have the Priest, have the Clergy is to uphold the teachings of the Faith.

 

The document I cited earlier, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, breaks down the Bible and the beliefs of the church.

 

What might sound political is often reinforcing and reteaching some of the core values of the religion. If the Pope or any clergy told people Specifically who to vote for, that's wrong. But if they didn't warn Catholics about voting for things that are wrong, they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

 

Again I doubt Benedict Xvi was that involved with American Politics. More likely than not the order to speak about those issues came from the US bishops.

 

The Catholic Church is going to push it's members to vote for a government that reflects it's goals. Were you complaining about politicization of Catholics when the US Council of Bishops was giving support for Obamacare? Or support for immigration reform? My local parish in Ohio is in speaker Boehners district. The church organized a rally for immigration reform outside Boehners offices .

 

I hope I'm not coming off as pushy. Doing my best to explain a complex topic.

[EmberMike]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

moosetracker I have to disagree. Had the BSA kept this as a local decision to make, the same thing still would have happened eventually. This thing was always a powder keg. All it would take to set it off was that one district with a "no gays" policy and one kid getting kicked out and taking it to the press. That was going to happen eventually, no matter if the policy was locally or nationally set.

[moosetracker]

I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

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[Sentinel947]

I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

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Haha. This website is so jacked up.

 

The council support what? I don't understand what you are referring to.

 

Yea, it's unacceptable for the Church to tell people who to vote for. I wasn't there. I remember a letter being read in my parish. It went over fine. It wasn't necessarily pro Romney. But it came from our archbishop. Not the Vatican

[Peregrinator]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

There definitely weren't any "orders" to speak out or stage protests ... for all the nativist fear of Catholics getting their marching orders from the Vatican, it doesn't actually happen.

 

Take France for example -- do you think the "Manif pour Tous" movement is taking orders from the Pope? Sunday Mass attendance in France is so bad (in the single digits) that a priest would be thrilled with the level of Mass attendance in the U.S. (around 25%).

[Huzzar]

From what I understand, although excepting boys of all faith, and boys of little faith (as long as not atheist).. Their acceptance of adult Leadership is stricter and more intolerant.. If not serious Christians then you can not be an adult leader.. And they will not accept faiths like LDS as Christian because it doesn't strictly follow the bible.. I stumbled upon some discussion with an LDS mother who was upset with the rules, and many people who I assume were interested in founding TL's in their area, were trying to defend TL's rule on adult leadership became pretty nasty to her..

 

It might be a rule made in fear of LDS moving over and changing the program to be different as in BSA, but I think they could have easily prevented that by welcoming them, but making rules and making it clear that they would have to follow the program everyone else did..

 

Anyway, definitely not a secular organization.. The only reason I can assume they put out a welcome mat to the youth of other religions while barring their parents is some insane notion of trying to convert them.

How can an organization setting its own rules be "copping out?"

 

If an LDS person can read their statement of faith and sign it they're in, right? If an LDS person reads it and says that's not what we believe, they don't.

 

Trail Life moved on from BSA, why are you so insistent they're doing something wrong?

[Kudu]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

 

[Sentinel947]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

Gotta be an approved flavor of Christian to be a TL leader.

[j2huggies]

A whole BS Troop here in Central MD moved to the local TL Troop and founded the 1st one I know of in MD (or at least Central MD)

[RememberSchiff]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

Thanks for the follow-up.

I recall needing a letter of reference from my pastor for my Eagle application back in the day. That letter was mighty slow in coming, annulments come faster

[SSScout]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

Kudu: you seem to be the man with the knowledge here. Am I to understand that Trail Life is a "purely" Christian/protestant/evangelical scout organization? From reading the previous stuff,do I have that right ? No Jews or Hindus or Mohamadans or Catholics need apply?

[Twocubdad]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

Not in adult leadership positions.