Churches Evicting Troops, and a new organization

[Eagledad]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

I don't understand what you just said, so I'm sure I didn't say anything about it. The 20s, 30s, 40s, all the way through the 80s is irrelevant to this discussion because homosexuality was culturally taboo. Why would a CO have that as a condition for the BSA?

[Sentinel947]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Jblake. T2Eagles CO is Catholic. Therefore the Church teachings can be found in summary in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

"2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

 

That is quoted verbatim from the latest Catechism published under Pope Benedict the 16th.

 

If the parents pulled their Scouts from the Catholic COs unit, which is supported by the Priest, I'm going to guess the parents decision was made on politics or an incorrect understanding of the faith"

[Eagledad]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Jesus said the same about all sinners Sentinal, but that doesn't require believers to spend all their time with them. Its a bit hypocritical of those here who admit don't believe the bible is the living word of God to suggest that those who do follow the bible are just acting from politics.

[moosetracker]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

Actually I have heard stories of scouters that were openly gay Adult leaders in their units and councils, that were turned away when they created this policy.. So why indeed.., Maybe because the conservatives got their panties in a bind about what WAS the current policy, and the fact that units did fully accept and welcome these people into their membership..

[Eagledad]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

You are just being argumentative. COs didn't set the condition of homosexualtiy because it wasn't an issue back then. Plan and simple. If you read on google that a friend of a friend's son of an aunt was asked to leave, it was because homosexuality was not acceptable by community standards. Not some high and mighty church. You imply that homosexuality was normal back in the 60s and the conservative forced gays to go in hiding by the 90s. Surely you don't really believe that. Are you doing this just so you can say it's different today? OK, let me help keep the discussion pragmatic and move on; it's different today.

[moosetracker]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Who said being members of the BSA mean ALL YOUR TIME, as if you are permanently glued to the hip??.

 

How do you write a rule strictly for them that states Homosexuals can not be adult leaders, while ignoring drunks, adulators, prostitutes etc.. And reconcile that with the phrase "Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." ??? It does not state the homosexual should be avoided, it states discrimination of a homosexual should be avoided..

 

if you are Catholic and do not wish to socialize AT ALL with homosexuals, you need to reconcile with the fact it is a personal decision, not something dictated by your faith..

 

Thanks Sentinel, I did not know of that statement in the Catholic publication from the Pope.. Although I did know the Catholic viewpoints have been evolving positively..

[Eagledad]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

You are wandering around again Moose, you implied the decision to decline membership was political because the church leader was OK with it.

[nextgenscouter1]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

While I agree the BSA made a good call with the new policy change. The conservatives didn't force gays into hiding, or bully the organization into not allowing gays in. and how is it a self-destructive policy? I also wonder would a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox be able to be a leader in TL or would it only be Protestant Christians.

[chrisking0997]

I see a lot of opinions of why folks are leaving the BSA for Trail Life and likely they are all correct depending on the unit. The local Trail Life near me organized as a result of the BSA membership decision. There was no thought of changing before. I know of a couple of Texas units considering Trail Life because the church has asked the BSA units to leave. I know of another boy run unit looking into Trail Life to get more freedom in there program. I don't think there is one main reason. But if Trail Life can get their feet under them, they might make a go of it. I don't feel Trail Life will hurt the BSA program. But it might keep them from going more liberal with membership like allowing atheist. Barry

well, yeah....when you have a 100 year old preexisting program, handbook, uniform, units, leadership, members to base your organization off of, you're gonna look like you've hit the ground running.

[Sentinel947]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Moosetracker, That has been the Catholic Position for a very long time. Simply because the Media acts like what Pope Francis is saying is new, doesn't really make it new. While many Catholics have failed to live up to the calling of treating gays with respect and dignity, that's been the institutional position for a long time. It means something different that the pro Gay marriage crowd thinks it does.

 

Eagledad, I'm not being in the slightest bit hypocritical. All one has to do is look at polling numbers to see it. A majority of American Catholics support gay marriage and birth control, which are against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Politics over Religion. No other way to spin it.

 

I'll retract myself a bit. It might not have been political. The parents could decide they don't want their children exposed to homosexuality. That's still not really a Catholic justification, but a personal one.

 

For my own information Moosetracker/Eagledad, are you Catholic?

[Eagledad]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Not sure what poll numbers have to do with anything, but I think we agree. By the way, I know several people who home school so that they don't expose their kids to different moral lifestyle until the kids are at a mature age. Still, I think it's hypocritical for anyone who doesn't have the same belief to suggest any other motivation of a different faith. At the very least it's self rightous because who is anyone to make such a comment (judge?) simply because that person doesn't follow the CO's religious leader. The best one can say is that they don't understand the other persons choice. I am not a Catholic.

[Rick_in_CA]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

When I was a boy scout, I remember one of the neighboring troops had a scout master that was an open atheist. He was active at the district and council level. While I understand he didn't go around giving lectures to scouts on why being an atheist was great, if asked he would discuss it. He was active as a scouter for something like 20 years. No one cared (OK, I'm sure there were some people that cared, but no one at the unit or council level felt any need to force him out for being an atheist). I don't think that would be true today.

 

As for being gay, I think there were lots of units and COs that would NOT accept an openly gay leader. But for those that did, I think the council would have let those units keep their leaders.

 

The change in the BSA was the move away from local control, to national setting membership policy based on conservative religious ideals. That is the mistake national made, and yes, it was destructive. It forced public schools and the military to stop chartering units, and closed off multiple sources of support (and no it wasn't the bad ACLU that kicking units out of schools, it was that the BSA went from having no formal policy of discrimination - to having one. And I applaud the ACLU for forcing government institutions to follow the law).

[Sentinel947]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Moose tracker stated that the parent said it was against his faith. The teachings of both the church and the parish priest would contradict that. If the parent doesn't want their son exposed to other peoples different morals, that's fine, but associating with homosexuals is not against Catholic teachings. That's all I'm saying.

 

I'm not saying the parent is a bad Catholic for removing their son, but it's important to note that Church doesn't say that Catholics need to leave the Boy Scouts. It's an important distinction for me to make. The parent was making a personal decision, and I won't judge that. However it's not "against the faith." At least not the Catholic Faith.

[moosetracker]

I agree with those here who have said that this spin off would probably have eventually happened even if the vote on the gay issue had not come up. There were (and still are) a group of people in the BSA that are not interested in, and have no intention of embracing the BSA values of pluralism (the BSA is “completely nonsectarian†and A Scout is Reverent - “... He respects the beliefs of others.â€Â). They want the BSA to be an explicitly conservative Christian organization that allowed others to join, as long as they agreed to follow conservative Christian values (after all, these are the only valid “valuesâ€Â). The vote was a signal that the BSA was no-longer moving in the direction they wished.

 

So it’s no surprise that Trail Life is an explicitly Christian organization (and only a certain kind of Christian at that), that has a policy on gays that is almost identical to the new BSA one (because it was really a religious issue, not one about gays). I have no problem with them and I wish them well. Trail Life (like the American Heritage Girls) is very up-front and honest about what they are, and provides an alternative to those scouters that don’t want to rub elbows with people of different faiths.

All I know is that homosexuals were active in scouting before the change in the 90's and people at council level knew it, and were fine with it.. Unfortunately when the change happened these people were already open and known in the scouting community.. So DADT couldn't work for them because they could not un-ring that bell and make everyone forget.. Were they as well known in the 60's I don't know, but in the 80's yes they were in scouting, well known and treated with respect.

 

It was not a friend of a friend.. Heard it from a person who was a DE at the time, and had to ask 2 people to leave who were good friends.. Heard it from someone who use to be a SM..

 

Agree with Rick-in-CA.. Had BSA left it as they had it where they did not take a side, they would not have infuriated liberals in having the policy, and they would not have infuriated Conservatives in removing the policy. They would have sailed right through this polarized debate by allowing the CO's to choose their own policy on the issue.. Instead setting it hurt them and removing it hurt them.. Therefore it was a self-destructive move and the policy should never have been created in the first place.

[moosetracker]

My understanding is our Council hasn't lost any units. The most conservative/fundamentalist Church in our area has a long time very active Troop, they still don't have any women leaders, but they are sticking around. I lost one scout, which is odd because we're a Catholic unit and the new policy is pretty much the same policy our schools have. I never had to confront the issue, but I think the previous policy was as much a violation of our rules as it was consistent with them.

 

I wonder how well the level of political activism in the Church correlates with the likelihood that they are leaving.

Exactly Sentinal.. I am not criticizing the parent for choosing not to associate with gays, just for stating it is because it is against his religious belief to do so.. Many people on these boards and in the news also keep siting Catholics as being one of the religions who was going to drop units if BSA accepted in homosexuals.. Yet the Catholic policy does not state that at all..

 

I don't think liberals are thinking the new Pope's words mean he is for same-sex marriage, but perhaps he will not promote uprisings and protests against it when it has nothing to do with his church or flock, and be content with the fact the Catholic church need not perform or bless same-sex marriages. But, more so, the Pope before him was trying to rile Catholics into political action against homosexuals not only in marriages, but also I do believe he may have split with the BSA over it.. The old Pope unlike this Pope did pull out and over emphasis some sins as being greater then others, and his views were definitely alienating liberal Catholics.. The new Pope's views heal and unify, the old Pope divided.. Everyone says the new Pope is not going against Catholic doctrine, but his interpretation is much more pleasant.

 

Sentinel - I am not Catholic.. Really I no longer associate with any organized religion, I moved away from organized religion due to 9/11, when I saw how they could brainwash and control people.. But, I was born and raised as a liberal protestant, in fact my father was a protestant minister, but he and my mother divorced when I was 7, so although my mom took me to church, I did not grow up with my father's influence except for long summer visits..