Churches Evicting Troops, and a new organization

[packsaddle]

Well, I looked a little farther and found this: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140211/PC16/140219833 These two units were evicted out of 212 units in that council. But that area is what we call the 'low country' and it leans heavily toward 'Bible Belt' status. There is no mention of Trail Life and the evicted units appear to be finding other quarters. Not much impact so far, it seems.

[Peregrinator]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

As a Catholic, I wouldn't feel comfortable in an explicitly Christian organization unless it was explicitly Catholic. There are some Protestant groups that really do not like Catholics.

 

I don't think it has much to do with not liking. I mean, it can, but really the critical thing is Protestants, especially those influenced by the pietist tradition (which I think describes most of TPTB in Trail Life), not understanding what makes Catholics tick.

[Hal_Crawford]

Well, I looked a little farther and found this: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140211/PC16/140219833 These two units were evicted out of 212 units in that council. But that area is what we call the 'low country' and it leans heavily toward 'Bible Belt' status. There is no mention of Trail Life and the evicted units appear to be finding other quarters. Not much impact so far, it seems.

At least Peace Presbyterian didn't confiscate the troop gear. St. Raymond's RCC in Springfield, VA took not only the gear but the troop accounts as well.

[qwazse]

Well, I looked a little farther and found this: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140211/PC16/140219833 These two units were evicted out of 212 units in that council. But that area is what we call the 'low country' and it leans heavily toward 'Bible Belt' status. There is no mention of Trail Life and the evicted units appear to be finding other quarters. Not much impact so far, it seems.

Interesting that they still have the PC/USA logo on their church sign. Maybe not for long?

[Sentinel947]

I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

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Why can't a church have an opinion about how government policy's are working? What's the difference between a church and any other non profit special interest group?

 

I'd agree any preaching that incites hatred or violent action is at the least contrary to almost all religious teachings. But you still haven't satisfied my question above.

[j2huggies]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

Aren't Catholics Christians?

[j2huggies]

Well, I looked a little farther and found this: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140211/PC16/140219833 These two units were evicted out of 212 units in that council. But that area is what we call the 'low country' and it leans heavily toward 'Bible Belt' status. There is no mention of Trail Life and the evicted units appear to be finding other quarters. Not much impact so far, it seems.

Pack, are you from SC? I did 5.5 yrs there and planning on moving back

[Sentinel947]

Well, I attended that "Trail Life USA Town Meeting" last night. Attendance was sparse, mostly district people who plan to be involved in both organizations, plus a guy from the Royal Rangers willing to lend a hand to the new organization.

 

I was able to briefly examine a Trail Life handbook. At first glance the Scoutcraft seemed even thinner than that of the BSA. The "Leadership and Character" (anti-Scoutcraft) aspects were even more pronounced, which should not be a surprise since it is an organization of BSA expatriates.

 

My BSA Troop's former Chartered Organization Representative is the chief Trail Life commissioner in this area. I agreed to serve on his committee as an outdoor skills trainer if he can shepherd my application through the process.

 

It turns out that one factor limiting involvement on district levels, is that a volunteer application must include a letter of reference from your pastor, so those who agree with Trail Life principles, but are not members of a church are excluded from membership.

J2huggies: Yes Catholics are Christians.

 

And Peregrinator, that'd be what concerns me. The lack of understanding that leads some Protestants to dislike or fear Catholics.

[moosetracker]

I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

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Politics by nature divides, especially in these polarized times.

 

Also there is a difference between the Koch brothers wanting me to vote a special way, per a commercial advertisement, and my priest telling me God wants me to vote a certain way or I will burn in hell for all eternity..

 

It is fine for Priest to get up and talk about things one way or another that if you follow politics you can attribute to siding with one political party views, but someone else who does not follow politics just takes it as a message on how they personally should conduct their personal life.. You are mistaken to think protestant sermons do not do this, at least the churches I attended did.. The priest would pull something out of the current news, and entwine or compare it to something in the bible to come up with some words of wisdom to go home and think about.. But, I don't remember them bring a politician by name into the sermon to condemn them or a political party into the sermon to condemn it.. Definitely never gave us a laundry list of the candidates that God wanted us to vote for..

 

That is the Protestant Churches I was raised in.. I don't know if during that time period the conservative protestant was as political as they are now, but now, politizing religion is (or was before your new pope) not just a flaw of Catholics.. The conservative protestants do the same thing, they were in on the Sunday protest where they were going to tell their congregation who to vote for.

 

God does not get involved in politics.. The priest is the biased person, and has somehow deemed that if they believe in a set politics with all their heart, then it must be God speaking through them.. But, it is just a flawed, biased human being on the pulpit telling his congregation his beliefs are Gods beliefs..

 

Even now Catholics are trying to politicize what the Pope says.. He is not endorsing the Republicans or the Democrats.. But, people want to see one party or another in his words, and use it as an endorsement.. There was some interview where the Pope did say it was wrong to twist his words into some sort of political agenda.. But, there are Catholics so use to the old Pope, that they just can't help themselves..

[Pack18Alex]

I have no dog in this hunt, I'm Jewish, my Pack meets in a Synagogue, so explicitly Christian groups aren't of interest to us.

 

LDS uses BSA as their youth programming.

Many churches house BSA programs, thinking it's a good program and happy to offer up meeting space, but how involved with the Church is the Unit? We have some Packs/Troops here attached to private parochial schools and only open to students there, they run it as an after school activity. We have a few chartered to a Church but that meet in a public school and only recruit from that school, the involvement with the Church is on paper.

 

The question is, does the church want an outdoor Youth Program? If so, then TLUSA/AHG gives them a Christian Outdoors Activity for boys and girls respectively that will be able to be tied in to the church. If you are housing a unit where few if any of the boys belong to the church, then the church isn't getting anything beyond a service project out of the deal. If they want to have a program to build membership in their church, the status quo isn't working.

 

Existing BSA Units have their leadership structure in place. If they aren't church members, then I completely see why the church would consider an alternative program that they can tie into their religious program.

 

When we moved from Self-Chartered to the Synagogue we meet at, there was an extensive discussion about what that would mean. They aren't asking all leaders be members (I'm personally a member of a Synagogue down the road), but they want an all-Jewish group that keeps Shabbat/Kasher as a Unit at campouts.

 

If you are a BSA program that meets in a church and has no relationship to the church, I'd be VERY VERY wary... if someone wants a church youth program, TLUSA and AHG are offering an opportunity to replace your program. BSA guidelines let the CO shape the leadership but not the membership. I would suggest asking the church/CO how you can help, what they want, and actively recruit there.

 

For example, we combine a recruiting event with the Synagogue Youth Department Kickoff, and do our Pinewood Derby at their Purim Carnival and our Space Regatta at the Lag B'omer Bon Fire. We have made ourselves a part of the CO's program, which results in the CO being very happy with us.

[qwazse]

I have no dog in this hunt, I'm Jewish, my Pack meets in a Synagogue, so explicitly Christian groups aren't of interest to us.

 

LDS uses BSA as their youth programming.

Many churches house BSA programs, thinking it's a good program and happy to offer up meeting space, but how involved with the Church is the Unit? We have some Packs/Troops here attached to private parochial schools and only open to students there, they run it as an after school activity. We have a few chartered to a Church but that meet in a public school and only recruit from that school, the involvement with the Church is on paper.

 

The question is, does the church want an outdoor Youth Program? If so, then TLUSA/AHG gives them a Christian Outdoors Activity for boys and girls respectively that will be able to be tied in to the church. If you are housing a unit where few if any of the boys belong to the church, then the church isn't getting anything beyond a service project out of the deal. If they want to have a program to build membership in their church, the status quo isn't working.

 

Existing BSA Units have their leadership structure in place. If they aren't church members, then I completely see why the church would consider an alternative program that they can tie into their religious program.

 

When we moved from Self-Chartered to the Synagogue we meet at, there was an extensive discussion about what that would mean. They aren't asking all leaders be members (I'm personally a member of a Synagogue down the road), but they want an all-Jewish group that keeps Shabbat/Kasher as a Unit at campouts.

 

If you are a BSA program that meets in a church and has no relationship to the church, I'd be VERY VERY wary... if someone wants a church youth program, TLUSA and AHG are offering an opportunity to replace your program. BSA guidelines let the CO shape the leadership but not the membership. I would suggest asking the church/CO how you can help, what they want, and actively recruit there.

 

For example, we combine a recruiting event with the Synagogue Youth Department Kickoff, and do our Pinewood Derby at their Purim Carnival and our Space Regatta at the Lag B'omer Bon Fire. We have made ourselves a part of the CO's program, which results in the CO being very happy with us.

The question is' date=' does the church want an outdoor Youth Program? If so, then TLUSA/AHG gives them a Christian Outdoors Activity for boys and girls respectively that will be able to be tied in to the church. If you are housing a unit where few if any of the boys belong to the church, then the church isn't getting anything beyond a service project out of the deal. If they want to have a program to build membership in their church, the status quo isn't working.[/quote']

 

This depends on one's theology. Some congregations, American ones especially, sense an obligation to hold programs for the community without regard to any bump in membership. In other words, they are not called to reach out to folks "like us," but to share their fruits with "the stranger in the land." So, a program that attracts kids just because their parents want them to know about Jesus might not pass muster with a church that wants *everyone* to know about the love of God.

 

BSA has benefited from these churches -- especially when it's stance against atheism got units removed from public schools.

[packsaddle]

Well, I looked a little farther and found this: http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20140211/PC16/140219833 These two units were evicted out of 212 units in that council. But that area is what we call the 'low country' and it leans heavily toward 'Bible Belt' status. There is no mention of Trail Life and the evicted units appear to be finding other quarters. Not much impact so far, it seems.

Yes, I am in SC. What part are you planning to move to?

Edit: I tried to send a PM but it says I'm 'over quota' or something to that effect. I deleted every message there was and then permanently removed everything in the trash and still no luck on PM. So if you want to chat about your move sometime, email me at packsaddle@lycos.com

Cheers

[Sentinel947]

I'm giving up writing comments. My last two I posted under the right section and they were thrown into the thread but under the wrong post and not where I placed the comment..

 

So In answer to Sentinel947 23.15.. ~~Did the council support it, or did they do sermons telling their followers to go out and rally and picket and protest about it as a massive group?.. One is fine, one is not, regardless of if it supports my ideas or not..

They definitely went beyond preaching about sin.. They were stating who to vote for.. You had a lot of Catholics ALOT, walking away from that sermon with smoke blowing out of their ears.. Even my brother-in-law, who is basically Republican and all for Mitt Romney replacing Obama was livid with the speech they were forced to listen to during that funeral.. It was probably close to what his beliefs were, but had absolutely no place being spoken in a church.. They were not at a political pep rally.

 

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I understand your point. I agree.

 

You keep pointing to Pope Benedict XVI as an especially political pope, but you don't provide any evidence to back your claim.

[Stosh]

One has to always remember with the different religious groups that there is always a major disconnect between their theology and their traditions. Religious organizations that rely more on tradition than theology always have a more difficult time theologically accepting people of a different traditions. Currently I am involved with 4 different "christian" theologically based organizations that would rather sling arrows at each other than pray together. This is why I am involved with them but not a member of any. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Matthew 5:8-10, isn't in any of their tradition radars, but it is part of all of their theology. Heck, most "chrisitian" organizations fight with themselves as much as they do others!

 

These break-away groups are nothing more than a continuation of the fragmentation they seem to enjoy the most. It's just another way to say, "I'm better than the rest of you." I'm thinking TLUSA and AHG fall into that category, at least that's what their media PR seems to be saying.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

One has to always remember with the different religious groups that there is always a major disconnect between their theology and their traditions. Religious organizations that rely more on tradition than theology always have a more difficult time theologically accepting people of a different traditions. Currently I am involved with 4 different "christian" theologically based organizations that would rather sling arrows at each other than pray together. This is why I am involved with them but not a member of any. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God." Matthew 5:8-10, isn't in any of their tradition radars, but it is part of all of their theology. Heck, most "chrisitian" organizations fight with themselves as much as they do others!

 

These break-away groups are nothing more than a continuation of the fragmentation they seem to enjoy the most. It's just another way to say, "I'm better than the rest of you." I'm thinking TLUSA and AHG fall into that category, at least that's what their media PR seems to be saying.

 

Stosh

More Holy than Thou.