Would you award service hours?

[qwazse]

Just ask this simple question: would you have done it if you knew you wouldn't get credit? or it wasn't required? (its a rhetorical question, watch the scouts face, and this is why I'm not asked to sit on Boards, its the only question I ask)

Judging by the excessive number of hours our boys have logged (and that's only the tip of the iceberg compared to what I know they have actually done), they would not take it rhetorically and reply with a resounding "Yes, sir, of course!"

 

The older ones -- who may be attuned to subtlety -- may take offense that you would even suggest such a thing. They would certainly not say anything. Well, maybe the more clever ones would reply "Respectfully sir, I'll let the MC's also joined in that project attest to my motives after I've left the room. Or, if you would rather table this board until you've joined me on next week's project, you are welcome to make a shoulder-to-shoulder assessment."

[fred johnson]

"Approved by your Scoutmaster" I have always taken this to mean "pre-approved" rather then a "hey, I did this six months ago, can you sign off" requirement). If they didn't ask before the event, they wouldn't get a sign-off from me.

BSA GTA addresses this. And it is re-iterated in BSA advancement news. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/512-075_AugSept.pdf

 

BSA does not require pre-approved service projects. It is helpful but it is not a requirement. Also, BSA does not require planning service projects and BSA explicitly states it does not require planning service projects.

 

So, our troop interprets "approved" as pre or post. As long as the scoutmaster is good with it being a service to others that meets the intent. I think that is what the requirement means.

[fred johnson]

Service hours are not "awarded". I really hate that thinking. Scouter leaders are not sitting on high with benevolence to those surfs in their troop.

 

We view it as service hours are "recognized". Have you helped others?

 

And as hard is this candle light vigil is, it is EXACTLY the intent of the service hour requirement. People were in need. They helped. It was the right thing to do. Of course it fulfills the requirement. Anything less is sending the wrong message.

 

Service hours always help people in need. Homeless. Hungry. Sometimes the people are just harder to recognize such as people who are tired from hiking and so we create benches to help them rest. Or land scape a non-profit that helps others in need.

[Basementdweller]

I agree with schifff.

 

 

this is pathetic.....

 

If it were one of my lads an SMC would be needed and a discussion about doing the right thing and not always receiving payment in any form.

[RememberSchiff]

Good Gawd. I wish we would go back to just teaching our Scouts to do a good turn without reward, recognition, or even thanks because it is the scout way of doing the right thing. Instead we have created generations who expect something more for doing the right thing or even just doing their job.

 

What's in it for me, Mr. Schiff?

 

 

 

[koolaidman]

Service hours are not "awarded". I really hate that thinking. Scouter leaders are not sitting on high with benevolence to those surfs in their troop.

 

We view it as service hours are "recognized". Have you helped others?

 

And as hard is this candle light vigil is, it is EXACTLY the intent of the service hour requirement. People were in need. They helped. It was the right thing to do. Of course it fulfills the requirement. Anything less is sending the wrong message.

 

Service hours always help people in need. Homeless. Hungry. Sometimes the people are just harder to recognize such as people who are tired from hiking and so we create benches to help them rest. Or land scape a non-profit that helps others in need.

Yes, "recognized" or "approved" is really the term I should have used. We don't hold out sign offs to be something handed down from on high.

[ScoutNut]

Yes, we should be teaching our youth to do service for others without requiring reward.

 

However, then why are we REQUIRING service hours?

 

While not all service hours are service in a time of crisis, they are all a service to someone in need. Why is it OK to acknowledge some service, but not others.

 

What makes it rude to ask for acknowledgment of service at a vigil, but not service to an 80 year old neighbor, or service to your local VFW at a recognition of deceased veterans?

 

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[qwazse]

Yes, we should be teaching our youth to do service for others without requiring reward.

 

However, then why are we REQUIRING service hours?

 

While not all service hours are service in a time of crisis, they are all a service to someone in need. Why is it OK to acknowledge some service, but not others.

 

What makes it rude to ask for acknowledgment of service at a vigil, but not service to an 80 year old neighbor, or service to your local VFW at a recognition of deceased veterans?

 

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

SN, here's how this happens.

1. Some scouts never seem to be at service projects.

2. Some adults gets their undies in their bunch over it.

3. Some of those adults, instead of camping with those boys and maybe figuring out the kind of service they'd like to do, become administrators on advancement committees.

4. They get the idea in their heads that "hey we can use advancement to force boys to be better scouts."

5. Nobody told them how much all the bean counting can be come a drag on the program.

6. Someone asks for a rule.

7. Someone else makes it.

8. The rest of us have to live with it.

9. Some scouts just do the bare minimum service hours before going up for their next rank.

10. Repeat steps 2-8.

 

Instead of "service hours", insert "recruitment", or "teaching other scouts" and you have half of the throw-away requirements in our current trail to eagle.

[T2Eagle]

Yes, we should be teaching our youth to do service for others without requiring reward.

 

However, then why are we REQUIRING service hours?

 

While not all service hours are service in a time of crisis, they are all a service to someone in need. Why is it OK to acknowledge some service, but not others.

 

What makes it rude to ask for acknowledgment of service at a vigil, but not service to an 80 year old neighbor, or service to your local VFW at a recognition of deceased veterans?

 

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

qwazse nailed it. you have the impression of a problem, not necessarily a real problem, and then you make up a rule to fix your not actually a problem.

 

There's a T21 requirement for troop and patrol activities outside troop meetings, so we make scouts write them down and show us they hit the number. The requirement is signed off, the scout never bothers recording that kind of stuff again and goes the rest of his scouting career pretty much going to all the activities he would go to anyway, his participation level neither better nor worse as a result of whether he had to write it down.

[T2Eagle]

Good Gawd. I wish we would go back to just teaching our Scouts to do a good turn without reward, recognition, or even thanks because it is the scout way of doing the right thing. Instead we have created generations who expect something more for doing the right thing or even just doing their job.

 

What's in it for me, Mr. Schiff?

 

 

On the other hand, we've created a generation that we say we don't trust. What would the answers be if the question was asked "I ahve a scout who says he did the service hours required but he never wrote them down?"

 

How many would answer "if he didn't write them down in his book then he can't claim them, tell him there will be plenty more activities and this is a lesson in writing everything down."

 

The scout didn't say I'll come if I can count it. He came, he did the work, he wants to record it. If you say no you can't use this one is he going to undo what he did?

[skeptic]

Once more we have those that simply cannot make a decision if there is any amount of gray in the discussion. Very few things in life are completely black or white. In this case, if I read it correctly, this scout was almost new and not from the unit directly affected by the tragedy. He came from the outside because most likely it was suggested he help by someone in his own unit, or a friend in the home unit. I would agree that a simple acknowledgement to the boy's unit is all that would be needed; then that unit can make the decision as they see fit.

 

We should not confuse a good turn and service hours. Generally the definition of a good turn is to do something at the moment it appears to be needed, not a planned and scheduled event. Part of the problem IS that the terms often are mixed or joined, such as the "Good Turn to America", which in reality is not a good turn at all, but scheduled and planned service. Most real good turns take almost no time, and scouts probably do them without even realizing, such as the door opening or the "helping the old lady across the street" joke.

 

Ultimately, it is a decision to be made at the unit level as to how you might address these things. We clean up camp sites when we leave, but that is not service hours, it is what we do in relation to Scouting and Leave No Trace. On the other hand, we have gone out on trail maintenance projects with the Forest Service or Trail Boss led events, and part of that is picking up litter. But, it is service hours as well for most of us.

 

Half or more of the problems, subjects of confusion, and beating of chests pro or con on these forums are about things that simply require a bit of common sense and local, unit level decisions. Why can't we just do our jobs and make rational, and fair determinations? That is what leadership is.

 

[fred johnson]

Good Gawd. I wish we would go back to just teaching our Scouts to do a good turn without reward, recognition, or even thanks because it is the scout way of doing the right thing. Instead we have created generations who expect something more for doing the right thing or even just doing their job.

 

What's in it for me, Mr. Schiff?

 

 

Not written down? We'd count it. Approval can be pre or post as long as it's service to others.

 

I fully agree. It's about teaching scouts to do a good turn. I worry the bank book approach to advancement may teach the wrong thing at times.

[Hal_Crawford]

Yes, we should be teaching our youth to do service for others without requiring reward.

 

However, then why are we REQUIRING service hours?

 

While not all service hours are service in a time of crisis, they are all a service to someone in need. Why is it OK to acknowledge some service, but not others.

 

What makes it rude to ask for acknowledgment of service at a vigil, but not service to an 80 year old neighbor, or service to your local VFW at a recognition of deceased veterans?

 

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Well said qwazse. I would love to see your flow chart for the G2SS. ;-)

[qwazse]

Yes, we should be teaching our youth to do service for others without requiring reward.

 

However, then why are we REQUIRING service hours?

 

While not all service hours are service in a time of crisis, they are all a service to someone in need. Why is it OK to acknowledge some service, but not others.

 

What makes it rude to ask for acknowledgment of service at a vigil, but not service to an 80 year old neighbor, or service to your local VFW at a recognition of deceased veterans?

 

Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Pretty much the same, except insert steps for actuaries and claims agents, maybe a few lawyers and judges.