Scout denied Eagle conference

[Stosh]

What make one think that Eagle Scout is nothing more than any other participation award? If you show up, do the requirements, you get the award. How is that any different than you show up, play the game, you get the award? It has nothing to do with winning the game, playing harder than the next guy, or accomplishing something special, like winning a championship.

 

I get a bit off center when people make out EAGLE as if it is something more than just a participation award, rank attainment. It's great that you showed up for the big game, but even if you lose, you still showed up for the big game. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

1- There have been a few blanket condemnations of the SM in this thread based entirely on the perspective of a parent with an agenda. 'MyBoy' wants her son to be awarded Eagle without having to participate in 3 camping trips. Some have accepted her viewpoint as a full and accurate description, and posters have jumped on the band wagon because they feel that all SMs are egomaniac power trippers.

My experience differs. When an SM feels that he needs to CC the ASMs in his troop, I don't assume that he's beating down a boy. More likely he is in a situation where he feels the need for a documented chain of evidence.

2- Should we start another thread to address SM egos? Does being selected to lead your troop's youth leaders MAKE you an egomaniac? If not, why are egomaniacs selected as SMs? Why do self-centered individuals (egomaniacs) give away so much of their time? Which came first, the ego or the shoulder patch?

3- Is three camping trips really that big of a deal? Youth soccer and basketball trophies have devolved into 'Participation Awards.' Eagle is much more than a participation award, but how could a Scout possibly earn Eagle if participation is waived?

 

Full disclosure: this is a current hot button for me. Last month a boy whose face was vaguely familiar to me wanted me to sign off an Eagle Project form. I've been the SM for 2 years (ego almost fully swollen) and I had to search in the paperwork to find out his name.

 

4- It's not 'Mom Scouts'; it's 'Boy Scouts'. Even if 'MyBoy' went on the camping trips for her son, it shouldn't count.

Yep there's a lot of painting with broad brushes, but these keyboards ain't made of camel hair.

 

Not sure that 'MyBoy' specified being the Mom or Dad, and the SM may not have all that big of an ego. He is clearly bothered by a boy who has no time for camping asking for an Eagle SMC ... just like you're bothered by an fella coming out of the woodwork after a couple years.

 

The parent is clearly bothered that service to others is not equivalent to camping in this SM's mind.

 

I'm personally bothered that the boys troop/patrol can't slap together a camp-out in March. Last month we had our oldest scout cooking up a storm for us because that was the last thing he needed for Eagle. Advancement isn't just saying "march to the beat of our drum", it's giving the fella a stick and saying "lay it down for us so we can boogie!"

 

Regardless of MyBoy's grasp of the situation, frets about hard feelings, etc ..., It's time for his boy to get a second opinion from his side of the internet. That's what district advancement chairs are for.

[Basementdweller]

One side of the story here.

 

So Honestly.......how many meeting does he make a month???? How many campout has he made in the last year????

 

My Troop has an attendance policy of 50% for meetings and outing for scouts and 80% for youth leadership.

 

Active is a unit policy...That might be what his beef is

 

 

Hard to give advice......

 

Go a head and do an end around and go to the District Advancement chair and see how it affects his ECOH.

 

If your going to have that conversation with the DAC, how about not making it about your son, but about a SM who is not following Advancement guidelines and the district should look at it.

 

You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around

 

So you don't think that it is going to affect the court of honor.....Sure it will.

 

A half hearted or even pointed Scoutmaster speech. Heck he might not even attend if it got that ugly.

 

To be completely honest.....As SM and I thought a lad did not complete the check list.....and was over ruled....I wouldn't attend at all.

 

That message is important for the lad.......The guy that mentored me all these years doesn't think I earned it. Maybe I didn't....

[Basementdweller]

Very long time lurker, MB Counselor, Committee Member, Den Leader, parent, and longstanding Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow member who has heard of this situation one too many times to not finally express an opinion...

 

 

"You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around"

 

To the careful reader/observer, the quote above from a prior commenter is very telling indeed.... this type of gleefully being primed for a fight should have no place in Scouting on any level by any adult, least of all a SM. Not very attractive nor honorable.

 

If this young man has completed his requirements in good faith, has participated in good faith to the best of his abilities within the parameters of his physical abilities and other obligations, especially academic obligations which as a high school student may be exerting a tremendous pressure on him, then perhaps it's time for the Scoutmaster to move along and find other avenues within which to express his ego and need to dominate the underlings.

 

Instead of giving him a hard time over exacting attendance requirements which he may simply be unable to meet at this stage of his schooling, look at him holistically - does he LIVE Scout spirit? Have YOU as his leaders been successful in instilling the VALUES of Scouting, as demonstrated in his everyday life? Does he set an example to his high school peers by maintaining good grades and lending a hand to those who struggle? Does he have good relations with his teachers and mentors? How easily can he get letters of recommendation, from how many people in the community outside of Scouting, and what are the contents of those recommendations - non-commital or impressively glowing - and how consistent are they? Does he regularly and willingly without duress attend to the obligations of whatever faith he may follow? Does he share his time and talent with his faith community? Does he have a job? Was his Eagle project thoughtfully conceived, significant and touch people's lives by serving a real need, whether it involved a million hours or not to complete? Not everyone has to build a bridge in the woods, clear fifty miles of trails, or involve fifty people to be "worthy". Look at the VALUE it brings and the depth of maturity it took to conceive instead.

 

Has he done anything other than not meeting your stringent and most probably arbitrary attendance requirements to displease or dishonor the troop - such as have a driver license suspended, get a girl pregnant, do drugs, take alcohol or smoke pot where it is illegal, drop out of school without cause, have someone sue him, especially if these things have been very public or in the newspaper? Does he lie, steal or cheat his way to success? Has he used profane language when addressing peers or adults? Has he physically or verbally hurt or threatened another Scout or caused a safety hazard on a campout? Is he a bully? Has he been involved with the police or court system? Can the SM or other adult leaders answer NO to all these questions regarding their own behaviour in their past youth or now as adults?

 

If the answers above are yes and no to the appropriate questions, then CELEBRATE the wonderful job YOU have done to help him become that honorable type of person, instead of looking to nit-pick technicalities and artificially stand in his way to make yourself feel powerful and important.

 

With the year after year decline in overall Scouting membership numbers nationwide, SIX percent decline this year alone, wouldn't it be better for the survival of the organization you all claim to love so much to help an honorable young man achieve his long-term goal, deepen his love for the program and have him look with fondness toward the day he might have a son of his own to introduce to the program, perhaps becoming involved as an adult to lead the next generation of Scouting forward? OR is it better to take a good kid who may not be YOUR perfect, ideal Eagle and make him bitter and resentful forevermore?

 

Having worked with a number of them myself, I acknowledge there are wonderful Scouters and SM's out there. Those Scouters are owed a tremendous debt of gratitude by the Scouts they work with selflessly and by their parents. Increasingly though, and very distressingly, I am more and more frequently running across narcissistic, egotistical, power-tripping, head-game playing, passive-aggressive, subtly-bullying, hostage-taking, gate-keeping, boy-leadership usurping SM's who have completely lost sight of who and what this program is supposed to be about. It is particularly infuriating when these behaviours are committed by a SM who is himself NOT an Eagle. To them I say, you should be ashamed of yourselves and the sooner you move along the better, for the good of the boys you are negatively affecting and the Scouting organization as a whole. I encourage you to re-read the guide to advancement - it is clearly stated you don't get to gate-keep a Scout from becoming an Eagle because he does not live up to some fantasy ideal you have of what a "worthy" Eagle is - that is not your prerogative. Particularly for older Scouts, it explicitly states that a Scouts outside obligations, accomplishments, and service are to be counted toward whether he is active and spirited.

 

Ask yourself, who is truly living Scout Spirit? Who is truly making it ugly? Who is truly doing the stomping around? And more importantly, WHY?

 

Original poster, if your son can look himself in the mirror and honestly know he EARNED that rank, then teach him to respect himself enough to respectfully not take no for an answer and pursue what is rightfully his without indulging the fancy of this SM's ego. Remind him this an opportunity to learn to deal with this type of difficult personality which he will certainly encounter in the real work-world. It is unfortunate he has to encounter it so early within the supposed safety-net of Scouting. Don't let it get him down. And certainly don't be intimidated by words such as "You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around". Because that is what they are counting on and how they flourish in acting inappropriately. Oh, and anything you might agree to, GET IN WRITING with a specific deadline - concrete things that are not open to their subjective interpretation, so they cannot employ their favorite trick of all - running out the clock to the eighteenth birthday. Been there, done that, seen it all from both sides.

 

Best of luck to both of you.

 

- BoyLedMyEye

No need to defend my sentinel.....

 

 

I wonder what your scouting linage has to do with the discussion. I am an Eagle scout and OA member as well I have held every position in a Cub Pack except COR and Every Position in a troop but CC and COR. District Day Camp Program Director as well....... So what???

 

I have been on the receiving end of the ugly of scouting.......From the unit and district level. It is ugly and mean and folks hold a grudge and will seek vendetta upon everything your involved with in scouting.

 

If your son remains in scouting after such an appeal.....there will always be whispering behind his back about his Eagle.....

 

Just like the Boy who was at Jamboree when his Eagle project was completed by his parents.....or the SM's Son who Dad signed all his merit badge cards.....Or the Boy whose dad bought his Eagle. on and on..

[Basementdweller]

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

 

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

 

 

 

 

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

[Basementdweller]

Beav's usual assumption was always that the person being tried in absentia was a reasonable Scouter with the best interest of the Scouts and the program at heart.

 

Unfortunately, my experience with SMs as both a youth and adult is of ignorance and ego as described by Myboy. There's a book--a few, actually--with 90% of this stuff in it. My opinion in my troop is always the minority and written off as "my way or highway" because I am literally the only person who has ready any of these books. The SM handbook, the PL and SPL HB, the Guide to Adv., and the Guide to SS, etc.

 

Every one of these threads is situational, and this SM is ignorant--willfully or inadvertently, it doesn't matter--and his position is wrong. I don't care about his intentions, I don't care about his heart: He's wrong. He is either wrong on purpose, or he is wrong because he is no good at his job, whichever, same difference. If he's wrong because he's unfamiliar with the GtA, his heart isn't in it. If he's wrong because he refuses to abide by the GtA, his heart isn't in it.

 

Next week someone might come around to pan their SM and if they're wrong and the SM is right I'll be right there by the SM. But in this situation, taking Myboy at face, the SM is a heel.

We don't know if it was signed off in his book or troopmaster......All we have is the OP saying he held a position.....

[Rick_in_CA]

The Eagle Scout award means different things to different people. I have encountered people that see eagle scouts as a really impressive, and others that see them as no big deal. I think one of the things that shapes our view of the award, is what were the eagles like that we knew when we were scouts.

 

In my old troop, we had only one scout make it to Eagle while I was there (no, not me). He was our SPL at the time, and a great scout (if you wanted a great example of kind, courteous, helpful, etc. He was it). I remember his eagle project. It was a conservation project at a county park, and the whole troop showed up to help. I spent the day with a pick in my hand digging a drainage ditch in hard ground ("are you sure that isn't concrete?"). Others in the troop laid out matting on bare hillsides and erosion channels. It was a project he (and all of us) were proud of. We saw how much he put into the troop, and how much he put into the award. To us it meant something because of the scout that held the rank, not the award itself.

 

Later that year when I met my first 14 year old eagle at summer camp, I was kind of shocked. How did he finish everything so quickly? I chatted with him a while about it. His troop turned out to be an eagle mill troop (though I hadn't heard the term back then). His project was a joke (he collected newspapers for recycling by giving twenty homes a paper bag, asking them to fill it with old newspaper, and collecting it the next week. He collected about a 100 pounds, that was it. Our troop did a newspaper drive every year, and we collected more than that per scout). His troop also ran a merit badge "clinic" the weekend after summer camp because summer camp didn't give out enough merit badges. He had gotten something like eight merit badges at the previous year's clinic (enough to finish his eagle). He boasted that over half the scouts in his troop were eagles (I didn't believe him, so I went by their camp later. I didn't count them, but there were a lot of scouts with eagle patches). Basically, his eagle award wasn't worth much (unfortunately this encounter has colored my view of "young eagles" to this day - something I have to watch out for).

 

So I can see both sides.

[JoeBob]

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

 

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

 

 

 

 

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

Basement: I love your attendance policy. My committee is slowly gravitating towards something similar. Our next hurdle is getting the Scribe to take attendance and post it in a reliable manner.

[Sentinel947]

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

 

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

 

 

 

 

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

As long as you clearly communicate an attendance policy and it isn't used a "gotcha" after no coaching from the SM I'm in favor of attendance policies. BD I trust you to implement an attendance policy fairly, because you do your job correctly. The same can't be said for every Scoutmaster, some of who use attendance policies as weapons to guard Eagle from "unworthy" Scouts.

[packsaddle]

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

 

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

 

 

 

 

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

Somehow I was under the impression that ANY time a boy asks to have a conference with the SM for ANY reason, there should be an SMC. When did we start using denial of this kind of communication as a punitive measure?

[packsaddle]

The Eagle Scout award means different things to different people. I have encountered people that see eagle scouts as a really impressive, and others that see them as no big deal. I think one of the things that shapes our view of the award, is what were the eagles like that we knew when we were scouts.

 

In my old troop, we had only one scout make it to Eagle while I was there (no, not me). He was our SPL at the time, and a great scout (if you wanted a great example of kind, courteous, helpful, etc. He was it). I remember his eagle project. It was a conservation project at a county park, and the whole troop showed up to help. I spent the day with a pick in my hand digging a drainage ditch in hard ground ("are you sure that isn't concrete?"). Others in the troop laid out matting on bare hillsides and erosion channels. It was a project he (and all of us) were proud of. We saw how much he put into the troop, and how much he put into the award. To us it meant something because of the scout that held the rank, not the award itself.

 

Later that year when I met my first 14 year old eagle at summer camp, I was kind of shocked. How did he finish everything so quickly? I chatted with him a while about it. His troop turned out to be an eagle mill troop (though I hadn't heard the term back then). His project was a joke (he collected newspapers for recycling by giving twenty homes a paper bag, asking them to fill it with old newspaper, and collecting it the next week. He collected about a 100 pounds, that was it. Our troop did a newspaper drive every year, and we collected more than that per scout). His troop also ran a merit badge "clinic" the weekend after summer camp because summer camp didn't give out enough merit badges. He had gotten something like eight merit badges at the previous year's clinic (enough to finish his eagle). He boasted that over half the scouts in his troop were eagles (I didn't believe him, so I went by their camp later. I didn't count them, but there were a lot of scouts with eagle patches). Basically, his eagle award wasn't worth much (unfortunately this encounter has colored my view of "young eagles" to this day - something I have to watch out for).

 

So I can see both sides.

Yes, but think of the way that 14-year-old was able to develop his leadership skills!

[Basementdweller]

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

 

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

 

 

 

 

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

Ahhhh, Pack the slippery slope and games begin.

 

Your right, a boy can request and SMC for any or no Reason.

 

The games being played by all parties.......

 

That is why our units expectation is communicated clearly up front....If you want to advance, well you need to at least attend regularly.......

[Basementdweller]

The Eagle Scout award means different things to different people. I have encountered people that see eagle scouts as a really impressive, and others that see them as no big deal. I think one of the things that shapes our view of the award, is what were the eagles like that we knew when we were scouts.

 

In my old troop, we had only one scout make it to Eagle while I was there (no, not me). He was our SPL at the time, and a great scout (if you wanted a great example of kind, courteous, helpful, etc. He was it). I remember his eagle project. It was a conservation project at a county park, and the whole troop showed up to help. I spent the day with a pick in my hand digging a drainage ditch in hard ground ("are you sure that isn't concrete?"). Others in the troop laid out matting on bare hillsides and erosion channels. It was a project he (and all of us) were proud of. We saw how much he put into the troop, and how much he put into the award. To us it meant something because of the scout that held the rank, not the award itself.

 

Later that year when I met my first 14 year old eagle at summer camp, I was kind of shocked. How did he finish everything so quickly? I chatted with him a while about it. His troop turned out to be an eagle mill troop (though I hadn't heard the term back then). His project was a joke (he collected newspapers for recycling by giving twenty homes a paper bag, asking them to fill it with old newspaper, and collecting it the next week. He collected about a 100 pounds, that was it. Our troop did a newspaper drive every year, and we collected more than that per scout). His troop also ran a merit badge "clinic" the weekend after summer camp because summer camp didn't give out enough merit badges. He had gotten something like eight merit badges at the previous year's clinic (enough to finish his eagle). He boasted that over half the scouts in his troop were eagles (I didn't believe him, so I went by their camp later. I didn't count them, but there were a lot of scouts with eagle patches). Basically, his eagle award wasn't worth much (unfortunately this encounter has colored my view of "young eagles" to this day - something I have to watch out for).

 

So I can see both sides.

Just as Rick is making assumptions. So are you Pack.

 

Not every 14 year old Eagle scout spends the next 4 years giving back his unit, just as in the same manner every 17 9/10 year old Eagle spent the previous 12 years enjoying scouting.

[Brewmeister]

Guide to advancement: 4.2.3.5, pg 29, states clearly that leaders do not have the authority to deny a Scout a unit leader (SM) conference that is necessary for rank advancement.

 

There is nothing for the SM to sign off on other than the fact that a scoutmaster conference was held. If the scoutmaster won't hold one, then the SCOUT should ask for a board of review, as the G to A says.

[Basementdweller]

Guide to advancement: 4.2.3.5, pg 29, states clearly that leaders do not have the authority to deny a Scout a unit leader (SM) conference that is necessary for rank advancement.

 

There is nothing for the SM to sign off on other than the fact that a scoutmaster conference was held. If the scoutmaster won't hold one, then the SCOUT should ask for a board of review, as the G to A says.

That is why the CC and SM need to be on the same page and actually talk.

 

Sure he can have his SMC but the CC could deny the BOR based on a SM recommendation to do so