Now what do we do?

[Laurie]

It was asked:

"But this isn't smoking or drinking. Does anyone really believe that another boy would think that getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock is "cool" and want to imitate it?"

 

Having been a crisis pregnancy counselor for 8 years, I can tell you that (1) yes, this does get imitated, and (2) the consequences are far-reaching and very difficult.

 

To judge or not to judge. Isn't it possible to express disappoint in decisions made without judging the boy? He made a mistake; to gloss over it would be wrong, but to condemn him would be too.

 

To help or not to help. I wonder if it would be appropriate to relieve him of a troop POR (assuming he has one) for a period of time. It would address the concern for setting an example, but it would not be a forever thing either. Now, if boys in the troop do not recieve consequences for any other actions (drinking on campouts, for instance), then this would not be the time--IMO--to begin that. As for help, let him know you are there for him, but I think I agree with the personal help--not necessarily the troop as a whole type of help. Giving help as a troop without acknowledging this in same way could glorify this boy. Please note that I said "could".

 

Just my thoughts. I do agree that this is a very difficult situation.

[Hunt]

Nobody fully lives out the Scout Oath and Law in his daily life--the only difference is the degree of deviation, and the consequences. Without knowing more facts, we can't even tell how big a deviation this was for this particular boy--whether it was part of a pattern of behavior, etc. I think a person can do wrong things, and then turn his life around and become a role model again. I don't think the boy should be drummed out of the troop at all--but at his next Scoutmaster Conference and Board of Review, it will be important to look at how the Oath and Law have guided him in dealing with the consequences of his actions.

Note: we tend to have exaggerated reactions when the sin involves sex--imagine that instead, the boy had driven his car too fast and had caused a crash that injured or killed someone. Horrible, yes, but perhaps it's easier to see how he might turn it around and face the consequences as a Scout. I think both situations should be handled in the same way.

[scoutingagain]

I tend to agree with Hunt. The Scout Oath and Law are goals that are set to guide our choices in life. This scout is certainly not the only person to fall short of fully achieving those goals. He made some poor choices and will have to deal with the consequences of those choices in his life outside of scouting.

 

As far as the Troop actions are concerned, I think it should be dealt with no differently than other serious transgressions that some scouts may engage in such as being caught drinking at a teen house party, shoplifting or other behavior that clearly demonstrates a lapse in living the Scout Oath or Law.

 

I don't think the scout should be told or asked to leave the Troop, but rather than removing him from a postion of responsibility, it might be more appropriate to ask him to resign from that position. It's a subtle difference I know, but asking him to resign goes further towards having the scout acknowledge the 4 issues identified in KoreaScouter's post.

 

This is a difficult situation and I don't envy any of those involved.

Frankly as the father of a 16 year old son with a steady girlfriend I can only think,"There but for the grace of God..." I have talked to my son about appropriate behavior and consequences, but I also remember what it was like to be a teenage boy and young women today seem to be far less inhibited than I remember 30 years ago, so yes I worry. I pray he makes the right choices and wish for the best for those involved in this situation.

 

SA

 

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"Does anyone really believe that another boy would think that getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock is "cool" and want to imitate it?"

 

It happens. There are segments of our society in which boys want to get their girlfriends pregnant to show that they are "men." The girls want to get pregnant to give them income and status. Very foreign to our way of thinking but that's the way it is.

[KA6BSA]

This is a complicated issue and the discussion has been very thoughtful trying to find answers in the Oath and Law and hopefully guidance by the Charter Organization. What I see missing here is the important concept of a "Boy Lead" troop. What do the SPL and PLs think should be done? Yet you have to ask yourself is a 12 year old Patrol Leader really capable of dealing with such an issue? Despite the difficulty with wanting to punish for not following the goals of Scouting, maybe all the boys of the troop can learn something about life from being involved in the decisions of the troop. But going a step further there may be some parents who would object to their son being exposed to the problem at all, just like they would for sex education in the schools.

[SM406]

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts. They are very much appreciated.

 

The chartering organization is a United Methodist Church that does not insert itself in the life of the troop. However the COR is very involved with the unit. So I am not sure what the response will be if any.

 

I am extremely torn by this. The role model side says he has not lived up to the Oath and Law and thereby should be scorned by the troop. The compassionate side says he who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

Since the boys father is an ASM and the mother a Webelos leader, their common sense will prevail and I suspect their son will quietly withdrawal from the troop.

 

Thanks again!

 

SM406

 

[Hunt]

I had to go back and look at the first post--this boy is 15--in 9th or 10th grade. He's still a child, although obviously he's capable of getting involved in an adult-sized problem. He should withdraw from the troop...and join what? The Sinner's Club? He's too young to get married, and even too young to really work. He's still in dire need of what Scouting can provide--more than ever, in fact.

Finally, would you like your "moral straightness" judged solely by the worst thing you've ever done, or by your life as a whole?

[KoreaScouter]

I don't think the lad should be forced to quit Scouting. In fact, his ability to face and overcome his breach of values in a values-based organization may ultimately give him the best character lesson he ever gets.

 

I don't think it should be swept under the rug within the Troop. I wouldn't put it in the monthly newsletter, either, but to assume the 12-year old PLs don't already know what happened, or are unaware that this sort of thing takes place is in my opinion very naive. I also wouldn't equate this with other similar adolescent infractions -- shoplifting creates a police record; this created a human life.

 

There's a middle ground I think, between giving him a pass and making him the reincarnation of Hester Prynne in The Scarlet Letter. It's true that nobody's perfect, and Scout Spirit is a journey, not a destination. The reason I asked about the CO in my earlier post is that I don't think this is necessarily a "revocation of membership" issue, unless the CO thinks so. In that case, he could transfer to another Troop, or something. If not, then it's certainly a test of our collective tolerance (love the sinner, hate the sin, if you will) of this young man who made a huge judgment error. And, our ability to do this will also be an application of the "Adult Association" method and a behavior model for the Scouts in the Troop.

 

Again, this all assumes he's doing the right thing by the girl, her family, and his unborn child. As the father of a son and a daughter, my thoughts and prayers go out to both families -- this must be heartbreaking.

 

KS

[Hunt]

One other point--the sin was sleeping with the girl--the pregnancy is the consequence. Would you ask any boy who admitted he was guilty of the same sin (but without the consequence) to withdraw? It's like punishing the drunk driver who kills somebody, but not the drunk driver who doesn't.

[OldGreyEagle]

If the scout was found to be having sex with another boy, would your reaction be the same?

 

I don't think the boy should be abandoned or scorned, I just dont see a huge role in the troop for him. I dont see the troop as the main support vehicle for this situation. I joined Scouts for many reasons, to support unwed parents was not one of them. If I choose I will provide support to unwed parents through my church in an unrelated to scouting activity.

[purcelce]

Here's my 2 cents...

 

Should the kid be thrown out of Scouting? No. If we got rid of every Scout who made mistakes, there would be no Scouting.

 

Many, many, many, many, moons ago, The Summer Camp staff had a party. Alcohol was invovled and so was 80% of the staff (including me). Camp and Program Director (Camp Director was SE), came down hard on each and everyone of us. Did we violate a major rule? Yes (several of them). Did we get thrown out of Camp and Scouts? No. Was I sorry? yes. Scouts actually kept me on the straight and narrow, even though I slipped a few times.

 

Ponder this question. WWJD?

 

YIS

 

Cary P.

[evmori]

"Ponder this question. WWJD?"

 

Hate the sin but love the sinner. And if the sinner never repented his sin, the kingdom of heaven would be closed to him.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[SR540Beaver]

SR540BEAVER: "Does anyone really believe that another boy would think that getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock is "cool" and want to imitate it?"

 

FOG: "It happens. There are segments of our society in which boys want to get their girlfriends pregnant to show that they are "men." The girls want to get pregnant to give them income and status. Very foreign to our way of thinking but that's the way it is."

 

But we are not talking about segments of our society, we are talking about a troop. I don't think most scouts would think this was cool and want to imitate it. Kids in a gang, possibly.....scouts, no.

 

[ozemu]

Wow! What a question.

 

We do not have chartered organisations. Here the issue is Scout only. Religious based morales have no play (here). Has he broken a civil law? Im not sure. Whether he has or has not is not a Scout issue to me - its a police matter. Let his church and the police deal with their issues.

 

The Scout issue is based on Law and Oath agreed and none of us are perfect. He has done wrong but if it is mostly poor judgement and bad luck so what? Really what can we achieve that church and law cannot? We can add condemnation or we can offer support.

 

Culturally we value women as being equal so his fatherhood is something we expect him to pursue (at least by maintenance) and this is not a religious rule. It is enforced by courts. Yes - getting her pregnant is an issue to us. But temper this with 50% blame (seems she was happy with the arrangement initially) (older too wasnt she) or even less than 50% if he was led on some. However culturally there is a price to pay and he is getting this fully given the discussion to this point. Does Scouting need to heap shame and disgust as well as society at large? Not in my book.

 

What to do? - examine your choices against the Oath you made on becoming a leader and judge him by the Law you aspire to - then peg it back for a 15 year old standard. Do not judge him by religious or legal norms as that is someone elses job, and society will make its outrage felt of its own accord.

 

That is my take and personally unless he has been sleeping around and not just unlucky I would support him where possible. Maybe it is simpler when Scouting is fully independant of religion. I get the feeling some of us are having difficulty separating our religion and Scouting ideals. And I bet some will say you cannot. But the world is not Christian and in some societies he is just being normal.

 

In our world he has done wrong; legally, culturally and religiously (for most of you) but Scouting is open to all regardless of creed, language, nationality, religion etc. He is a human; an inexperienced boy. In my reading of Scoutings role he should be treated as a boy now becoming a man who has stuffed up permanently but might still hold some hope of being President (maybe not Pope).

 

If he has time for Scouting I would have time for him. Because I made a Promise to abide by a Law and made an undertaking to do this to the best of my ability (not his ability).

 

 

PS good post Laurie.

[ozemu]

I read this this morning and had to wait until time allowed after work. Damn that time zone!

 

I separate this from the previous post as it is a personal take that has little to do with Scouting.

 

I spent the day doing initiative problems and games outdoors with three kids. One is a girl who, among other things gave $2 head jobs at school. She has no self esteem, no friends, no confidence and soaks up compliments and me pointing out her good qualites like a sponge. She is just a 13 year old doing the best she can with a bad start. She is punishing herself more than others can (and she is not to blame for losing an eye years ago and suffering neglect and abuse - so why does she have to put herself down?).

 

I bet the young Scout is putting himself down too. Certainly society has a way of telling people they are losers and that cuts teenagers to the core. They embody the bad image placed upon them.

 

I feel for the young bloke. He may have had a better start than she did but so what? - he is probably tearing himself up and self esteem etc have hit an all time low. I think that we (not just Scouting) should be trying to make something out of what little there is left in this young man.

 

He is only 15 and not ready for the scrap heap - unless that is where we put him.