Blue and Gold - Pack Event or Crossover Event?

[Stosh]

For us, both events MUST happen in February.

 

 

Well whoever made up your special stupid rules, they seem to be quite infective. I pity the Cub Scout who's birthday falls on March 2nd, and he has to wait 364 days to get his earned recognition. But I know how important the rules are... Just tell Johnny he'll have to wait. It would be interesting to see the BSA notice that says this has to be done if February when they recognize a boy's completion of Cubbing at the end of the school year in June.

 

Or he can do like I did. When I was old enough, I just filled out the registration form and walked away from Cub Scouts. There are way too many people out there with control issues making up rules that do more harm than good. I guess I really don't have much time to deal with these people so I avoid them like the plague.

 

I have also been known to make up my own rules... like the rule that says I don't have to follow stupid rules.

 

Stosh

[fred johnson]

Well whoever made up your special stupid rules, they seem to be quite infective. I pity the Cub Scout who's birthday falls on March 2nd, and he has to wait 364 days to get his earned recognition.

Stosh

 

Your comment is both rude and confusing and reflects little on what I wrote. Get on track and comment on what was written.

 

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Birthday and waiting 364 days? Either you did not communicate what you meant or you are commenting on a combination of multiple people.

 

I wrote both must occur in Feb because ....

 

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Feb is birthday of scouting. It would be silly to celebrate a February birthday in January or March.

 

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We want to minimize time between the cross over to when the troop is ready for them. With troop shopping, scouts come from two, three or more packs. When troops receive new scouts, many form new scout patrols. ... It's hard to form that patrol without all the scouts. It's hard to build the patrol flag. It's hard to get started on the initial kick off stuff. It's equally bad to wait in limbo until more new scouts appear.

 

So in our area, most troops plan their program around a March start for new Webelos. It matches what BSA promotes.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/YearRoundGuide/graduate.aspx

 

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Ranks and awards should be awarded as soon as possible. But cross over and Blue and Gold naturally fit together in February.

[Eagle94-A1]

As I have mentioned elsewhere, my pack does the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies in December. Why that early? For a variety of reasons.

 

1) Since we have an active year round program, most Webelos IIs are waiting on the "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. " in order to earn the award, i.e. 6 months from June 1st is December 1st.

 

2)And since our Cubs are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts, as soon as they meet the joining requirements: "Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old." we cross them over. I know of only 1 Scout who waited to Cross Over, and the wait was less than 2 weeks, so he could Cross Over with his buddies.

 

Don't know how the new changes are going to affect my middle son as the new AOL requirements do not have an age requirement to them. And he is already jealous of his older brother camping every month.

 

3)We do not have to deal with rechartering them

 

4) Gives the new Scouts plenty of time to get acquainted with the troop and get ready for summer camp.

 

5) Gives parents plenty of time to get acquainted with the troop and get ready for summer camp.

That's vital.

 

6) Gives the new Scouts plenty of time to fundraise and pay for summer camp. That ticked me off back in the day when Cub Scouts was 3 years and you Crossed Over in May, I found out about summer camp 2 or 3 weeks before the troop went and could not go .

 

7) Did I mention the Cubs are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts?

 

And as far back as I can remember, Once you got the Arrow of Light, you Crossed Over to Boy Scouts. So only in the BSA literature would you see the AOL badge on a Cub Scout. BUT you do get to wear it as a Boy Scout.

[fred johnson]

Fred, there is nothing per BSA that says Webelos crossover must happen in February. I've seen it happen in January, February, March and April.

 

In terms of crossover, it should be a TROOP thing. It is a TROOP ceremony in which the TROOP welcomes the new Boy Scouts. Arrow of Light is a PACK thing. It is a PACK ceremony in which the Pack honors the Webelos who have completed the Arrow of Light.

 

 

Arrow of Light is an award and awards should be awarded in a timely fashion. No need to wait for B&G. But cross over is the last chance to award Cub Scout awards. Many scouts finish Arrow of Light right before cross over. No reason not to award it at the same event if needed.

 

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Cross over is not a troop thing. It's not a pack thing. It's both. You have to have somewhere to cross over FROM and somewhere to cross over TO. It's a BOTH. BSA does not say "MUST" but BSA does recommend. As we coordinate between multiple packs sending Webelos to multiple troops, it's easier to coordinate based on what BSA recommends. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/.../graduate.aspx

 

Scouts can cross over early or late. Those that are done with Arrow Of Light and qualify can go way way early into the troop. From what I've seen though, it's usually when there is an issue (bad den or people not getting along) when that happens.

 

On the flip side, scouting is best done with friends. A successful Webeos program creates strong friendships between the boys and the adults. Most boys will wait for their friends to have them all join at the same time. It's not a requirement. It's what it looks like when it goes well.

[fred johnson]

As I have mentioned elsewhere' date=' my pack does the AOL and Cross Over Ceremonies in December. Why that early? For a variety of reasons. [/quote']

 

Can't argue your reasoning. Sounds fine with one exception ... do your Webelos go to one troop or are there multiple troops? Likewise, do the troops have multiple source packs. And, do they do a new scout patrol? Easier to support different times if the troop doesn't use a new scout patrol and instead assigns scouts to an existing patrol. But if they have a structured program for gearing up scouts with new skills and having new parent orientations, then it is easier to start the scouts at the same time.

 

[Stosh]

 

Your comment is both rude and confusing and reflects little on what I wrote. Get on track and comment on what was written.

 

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Birthday and waiting 364 days? Either you did not communicate what you meant or you are commenting on a combination of multiple people.

 

I wrote both must occur in Feb because ....

 

=====================================

 

Feb is birthday of scouting. It would be silly to celebrate a February birthday in January or March.

 

=====================================

 

We want to minimize time between the cross over to when the troop is ready for them. With troop shopping, scouts come from two, three or more packs. When troops receive new scouts, many form new scout patrols. ... It's hard to form that patrol without all the scouts. It's hard to build the patrol flag. It's hard to get started on the initial kick off stuff. It's equally bad to wait in limbo until more new scouts appear.

 

So in our area, most troops plan their program around a March start for new Webelos. It matches what BSA promotes.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/.../graduate.aspx

 

=====================================

 

Ranks and awards should be awarded as soon as possible. But cross over and Blue and Gold naturally fit together in February.

 

I wouldn't classify the statement as rude. Blunt, but not rude.

 

I fully understood your comment that both the Blue Gold and cross-over need to be in February and my blunt answer is "Why????" Here one has the perfect example where the program is more important than the people it is supposed to be serving.

 

What if one of the Webelos II boys is not yet old enough to get his AOL at the time of the B/G? My point? Does he have to wait a year?

 

What about the Webelos II boys that want to get in on the Pinewood Derby one last time. Sorry, but you crossed over to Boy Scouts....

 

Maybe February is the birthday of scouting, but when it comes down to awards for the boys, it's THEIR birthday that is really more important.

 

As far as boys tricklling in over the course of a couple of months? So what?! I know it's not neat and tidy for the adults to handle, but it is a good learning experience for the TG. Basic problem solving 101. I have boys trickling in all year long. They figure it out rather quickly. We don't rely on feeder packs, we go out and recruit year-around. I know it's difficult to do, but not impossible.

 

If waiting in limbo for a couple of months, try waiting for months with boys in limbo waiting until we get our 5 boys to start a new troop. I do cross-over ceremonies from B/G time through the following because I have had boys stay with Webelos through the summer to get in on the Webelos summer program instead of the Boy Scout program because of maturity and age/birthday issues. They leave the grade in June, too late to get in on summer camp, but Webelos fun stuff is still available? Sure, go with the Webelos program. I have boys start trickling in in February and I have had some finally make the transition in August just before school starts.

 

I know the BSA program is valuable for the character development of young boys. But I still think the boys themselves are more important than the program.

 

Stosh

[fred johnson]

I wouldn't classify the statement as rude. Blunt' date=' but not rude. ... Stosh[/quote']

 

Your repeated statements that you think the boys are more important than the program is dementedly self-absorbed. I'm not being rude, just blunt. Of course boys are more important. Of course we all think that. And of course, troops have to absorb scouts if they trickle in late. And of course, little Johnny doesn't have to wait another year to get his Arrow of Light. No one is saying otherwise.

 

The trouble is that your view of what is best for the boys is different than others. And you're using the exception path to advocate for your practice as a standard. It's distracting from the key discussion and from recommending best practices.

 

What is best is when boys join together and with their friends. At the heart of it, that's what scouting is. Friends getting outside to do things. And boys will participate and stick around when their friends are there too. Because packs and troops are not tied such that most boys cross over into the same troop year after year, the annual planning requires coordination between multiple packs and multiple troops. Because troops are so different in how they do their annual calendar and internal habits and how they are geared toward new scouts, it's best to recommend that packs follow a common standard.

 

I'm sorry Stosh, but your troop and it's practices work for you and we can debate whether BSA procedures or Stosh procedures are better, but when we promote a standard, we promote the BSA standard. It's documented. It works. And, it's what is taught as a standard to work together. Yours isn't document. Yours is one of many off-shoots of scouters that do-their-own-thing. And there is no University Of Scouting where I can go attend a nationally communicated program of Webelos by Stosh.

 

Do something diferent if you really need to. Do something different if your area has one pack and one troop.

 

But I just don't see why to pick a fight when what is published works and works well.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/YearRoundGuide/graduate.aspx

 

[Stosh]

My WB ticked focused on the Web to Scout transition and I didn't stop after two years with it. While it is true there are many ways to do this transition it is obvious that not all work all that well. There are certain pitfalls that we often get stuck in and before we know it, a lot of potential scouts simply vanish.

 

BSA might put out a ton of publications stating what is the best way to do it and yet the end results still have a ton of Cubs never making it to Scouting. My "Whatever it takes" attitude might sound arrogant to some, but what I do works, then it's quite blunt to chide the messenger. Look at the message. There is no standard out there, there's no magic bullet that can be used to solve all the different situations, every boys is different, every family situation is different, some boys are dealing with broken homes and financial short comings. So, then, give me the one-size-fits all formula pill that BSA prescribes that fixes all of that?

 

Hmmm, Blue Gold AOL/Cross-over ceremony in February? I wish it was all that easy. Yep, you're right, my Whatever-it-takes approach has no documentation whatsoever. I guess I just don't believe that everything this important can be summed up with a simplistic approach.

 

Somehow from the comments on the forum, I'm not the only one that doesn't follow the BSA prescribed directions from off the box to make things work in their units all the time either. But if someone out there has somehow found a wee bit of success on how to do it, I want to hear about it instead of the party line of: "Nope, this is the best and only way to do it."

 

Stosh

[fred johnson]

A "whatever it takes" approach is fine when dealing with the individual, but it's worthless for planning and advanced coordination.

 

What I'm hearing from you is cross over scouts whenever they are ready. If that's what they want, I'm fine with that. But "TO PLAN" is best done with best practices. The best practice is to dens and friendships together as much as possible. The "trickle" approach can be very rough for those going into Boy Scouts and those left behind in Boy Scouts.

 

Many troops plan setting up new patrols in March. Creating patrol flags. Holding elections. Holding new-scout activities that teach skills and build friendships.

 

If your "whatever it takes" approach works for you, fine.

 

I'm not 100% against crossing over earlier. Several of my sons could hardly wait for Boy Scouts. But they wanted to be with their friends too.

 

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You're asserting "no big cross over. Treat them all as individuals and cross them over when they are ready. " Fine. Maybe that's the best. It's just not the taught or recommended way ... and it is debatable if it's the best way.

 

This column though is asking "when to plan to hold cross overs". Coordinate with troop. Schedule it in the annual planning meeting. I'm just asserting that February is the month that fits best and is recommended by BSA.

[Stosh]

With 4 potential feeder packs in our area, planning on holding just one cross-over is impossible. We have different packs coming to visit, we go to different packs to do special preso's to recruit, we hold cross-overs whenever the boys are ready, one pack did 3 cross-overs last year for us and another troop in the area. One was done in November, one in January and one in late May just before school let out.

 

About the only time there is ONE PLANNED event for all Cub Scouts, it's when we invite all the Web II boys to our winter cabin camping.

 

As you can see what we do is NOT just for the individual Webelos Scouts.

 

And as you can see the pack that did 3 cross-overs doesn't follow BSA recommendations either. I do have to admit that the May cross-over had the largest group of boys ready to make the move.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

[fred johnson]

As always, your area seems rather unique.

 

In our district, all packs pretty much cross over in the last two weeks of Feb to the first week of March. I know of none that cross over before February and only a few run a week or two into March. None in or after April.

 

Some individual boys may cross over and start earlier. But that usually reflects a personality clash or a den failure. None that I know cross later as their den is gone by then.

 

A majority of the local troops use new scout patrols too. Having your packs all cross over in six month increments would be difficult for forming the new patrols ... because the forming process is educational and part of the growth pattern.

 

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You have "ONE PLANNED" event ... one planned for each pack. The packs plan the cross-overs as the cross over takes place at pack events.

 

 

[Stosh]

As always, your area seems rather unique.

 

In our district, all packs pretty much cross over in the last two weeks of Feb to the first week of March. I know of none that cross over before February and only a few run a week or two into March. None in or after April.

 

Some individual boys may cross over and start earlier. But that usually reflects a personality clash or a den failure. None that I know cross later as their den is gone by then.

 

A majority of the local troops use new scout patrols too. Having your packs all cross over in six month increments would be difficult for forming the new patrols ... because the forming process is educational and part of the growth pattern.

 

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You have "ONE PLANNED" event ... one planned for each pack. The packs plan the cross-overs as the cross over takes place at pack events.

 

 

No, the one planned event is our winter cabin campout where all the potential Web II boys from all the packs are invited out to spend the day sledding, hiking, having lunch and getting to know the boys in the Troop and the other boys in the other packs.

 

Right now we have 6 boys that come from 4 different packs and attend 5 different schools. They came in over the course of 12 months getting ready for organizing our new troop.

 

Maybe we can be a bit more flexible and not so rigid because of our diversity.

 

Our community is 50,000+ so we have a few troops in the area. My boys come from all over that community and only 3 of them are rather geographically located in the area of the troop meeting. I did pick up one boy that was discouraged in the troop he was in and when the all-call went out from the Council office for help, we snatched him up. He's doing just fine in the troop.

 

Stosh

[SR540Beaver]

Putting on my moderator hat here. There is an expectation for our members here to get along by applying the Oath and Law and to lead by example. Please knock off the sniping at each other. I'd prefer not to have to edit people's posts.

[Eagle94-A1]

If I may offer some perspective?

 

Now I am going assume, and you know what can happen when you assume , that JP has been a leader in Scouting no earlier than 1989 as that is when the concept of an NSP, one big AOL Ceremony (although many packs were doing it that way, it wasn't intended to from my readings), and the concept of First Class, First Year ( or OPERATION FIRST CLASS as it was called) all came about in BSA literature.

 

So for many folks, the way JP states is the only way they know. Not saying that is correct, and I am not saying it is not. More on that in a bit.

 

Now I am going to assume, and again you know what can happen , that Stosh has been around since way before the 1989, when the norm was not NSPs, Experienced Patrols, and venture patrols, but mixed aged patrols and Leadership Corps for the senior most scouts. Scouts came into the troop, joined a patrol that was already existing and he may or may not know anyone in the troop. Not saying that is right or wrong either.

 

Now what I am saying is a troop's program and organization MUST work for them. How the patrols are organized and work doesn't matter, only if the Scouts are getting the program.

 

I grew up in a mixed aged patrol troop. Older scouts in the patrol buddied up with the younger scouts and worked with them. The two times NSPs were tried, were complete and utter failures, and the PLC decided to go back to the traditional organization of mixed aged patrols. And because we did not have a feeder pack during all but my last year as a youth, we were constantly getting folks into the troop year round. Since getting FCFC was non-existant, there was no emphasis on getting scouts to FC in a year. So what Stosh is describing worked for us.

 

As an adult, I have been involved with troops that use NSPs, Experienced Patrols, and venture patrols. They have feeder packs that cross over all at once, so a more formal FCFY program can be organized.The unit culture and organization are such that that method works for them.

 

That's what is great about scouting, as long as certain parameters are followed, there is a multitude of ways to have a program.

 

JP,

 

To answer your question, it depends on the Scouts and what they are doing. In 2012, all the Cubs went to the same troop, which got scouts from us only. In 2013, five Cubs went to the CO's troop, which also picked up Scouts from Spring recruiting, and 2 went to Troop B down the road. Troop B also has a feeder pack. This year, all three are going to Troop B. And we are actually doing a joint AOL/Crossover Ceremonies.

 

[fred johnson]

SR540Beaver ... My apologies. My program and myself being referred to as ineffective by Stosh got my goat. And it especially got my goat after I was just trying to repeat the best practices I've seen and what is generally taught by BSA. I appreciate different approaches can and do work, but I don't appreciate cheap shots. Unfortunately, I was baited to do the same. I apologize and am embarrassed to have sunk to that level.