Pros and Cons of the Junior Assistant Scoutmaster position

[qwazse]

I enjoy these converstations because it gets into the meat of the program. The editor on my side is making it impossible. Sorry. Barry

Try typing your post in a text editor, copying it, then pasting it into your post.

[Eagledad]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

[Eagledad]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

Wow, woohoo! one finally came through.

[Sentinel947]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

Amen!

[Stosh]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

Good to see you finally got it figured out!

 

You are correct in that the BSA defines it's management structure top down as responsibilities. The rub comes when responsibility is delegated down a level and no authority goes with it. This is the #1 problem with the management style. IF, and it's a big IF, no authority goes with it, the "power" remains at the top of the structure, but if authority is allowed to go with responsibility, then the "power" reverses the structure.

 

If the SM says we're going to summer camp this year, and delegates responsibility to the SM to get it lined up, and the SM delegates responsibility to the PL's to get his boys in order, you have a top-down structure of management. But what if the older boys really don't want to go to summer camp, but would prefer doing a high adventure activity instead. They have no authority to make that change and come summer camp time, they will disappear from the scene and the SM will need to implement some kind of rules and regulations, threatening advancement, Scout Spirit, etc. to force the boys to comply with his authority over the whole program. In my estimation, this is why top-down, management structures don't work and I constantly hear on this form the results of trying to do it that way. There is nothing idealistic about it, the system has it's problems and will continue to produce the same results over and over again.

 

So let's flip the structure upside down and give authority to the boys to lead themselves. Most of the boys want to go to summer camp, it's new, it's exciting and they've waited a whole year to get there again. However, the older boys are bored stiff. They want another adventure. So what are they to do? They turn to the SPL for HELP (servant leadership), and he agrees, yes they have a point, and it's a problem that needs to be resolved (problem solving skills). He's at a loss, so he turns to the SM for HELP (more servant leadership) and they all work together to assist the PL of the older boys to get them to the HA activity and get the younger boys to summer camp.

 

These are the dynamics I work at developing in the troops I work with. The BSA can put out the SM down to PL structure out there and try it's best to work within the confines of managerial styles, but it's far easier to develop servant leadership which in a lot of cases is easy for the boys to understand and pick up on. And I have been using this approach for 30+ years and don't seem to face the problems that many on this forum seem to raise on a regular basis.

 

I'm not saying this is better, but it is a far easier approach to the patrol-method with the boy-led involvement, than trying to teach the fine points necessary in a management style organization.

 

With many years of experience and a lot of training, there are troops out there that have figured out how the management style, and do quite well. I just don't see them in the majority of problem free troops. As a basically lazy person, I find training the boys in servant leadership rather than task management, a far easier process.

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

Couple of typos SM delegates to SPL and SPL delegates to PL. Sorry, no edit feature.

[Eagledad]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

No figuring it out sadly, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I can separate paragraphs, most times everything runs together. Cut and Paste is the same way.

[Stosh]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

What I do is type it into the forum editor and if it's something I don't want to lose when I hit the post button, I save off into a text document. Hit post if it posts, good, if not, I copy and paste from the text document and the formatting from the forum editor stays put. Just a little suggestion to use especially on the posts/responses you put a lot of thought into and don't want to lose. You put out some good thoughts and having invested some time and thought into it, it's really a shame to lose it.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

I don't think the process you've both described is that different.

 

Jblake, I think you've perfectly described what the BSA wants. Just because Troops often devolve into top down adult lead units doesn't mean that's how it should be.

[Eagledad]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

>>The rub comes when responsibility is delegated down a level and no authority goes with it. This is the #1 problem with the management style.

[Eagledad]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

You missed the whole point stosh, but the editor isn't working now. Another time maybe.

[Twocubdad]

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

Great discussion -- finally!

 

Barry wrote: "... it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed."

 

Exactly. When I first started as SM a good friend who had been a SM for decades told me his greatest challenge was to evaluate the ability of the youth leadership and to moderate his level of engagement depending on what the youth leaders required. It is the SM's job to give the youth leaders the freedom and responsibility to lead the program, but not to destroy it. We have a responsibility to ALL the Scouts to deliver a good program to them. Controlled failure may be a great learning tool for the senior youth leadership, but not at the cost of no program for the Scouts under them. We don't cancel campouts due to the failures of leadership. The failure is that the adults had to step in and run things, not that the campout was cancelled. To me, that is the core of the method of Adult Association.

 

Not to get off in the weeds with anecdotes, Stosh, but a carefully-crafted program can keep the older Scouts engaged in both HA and the overall troop program, including summer camp. First, there are plenty of opportunities for high adventure outings, The key to getting to also remain active in the regular troop program is giving the older Scouts A LOT of freedom and responsibility at summer camp. The deal I have with the older guys is is they run the troop and I leave them alone. Don't want to take merit badge classes? Fine. Want to sleep through breakfast? Okay. Stay up all night with your buddies? Fine with me as long and you don't disturb anyone else. But in return, you run the troop -- take the younger guys to the shower, make sure they find their MB classes, deal with home sickness, provide fun things to do. On their own, my older guys come up with a duty roster taking turns with shower detail or hauling the troop to early bird swim. Frankly, I take a fair bit of heat from parents who think their kids are "wasting" camp and camp staff and other troop leaders who want to know why my guys are at the shower house at 11:00 (because they were working past "lights out" and this is their first opportunity to shower.)

 

Consequently, I have Scouts who go to summer camp seven and eight years. That compares to a national average of, what, two years? Guys with conflicting summer jobs ride up to camp on their days off just to spend time with the troop. Most years I have 18- and 19-year-old ASM camp with us. If we treat them like they young me they are they will come.

 

But the point is this isn't a black or white/up or down issue. Leadership should be a shared proposition between the senior scouts and younger boys, between the adults and the Scouts. Dumping responsibility on Scouts they are ill-equipped to handle is just as great a recipe for disaster as is giving them the responsibilities without the authority.

[acco40]

What is more important in the army - the Colonels and Generals or the warrant officers and Sergeants? The answer is both are needed and the army would not function properly without both.

 

Now, the real question is - does this boy of 16 and you want him to serve the Scoutmaster (that is what a JASM does) or serve in a leadership position with the boys? Don't have a JASM lead the boys and don't have a troop guide, SPL, Intructor, etc. carry out Scoutmaster assignments.

 

[Kudu]

What is more important in the army - the Colonels and Generals or the warrant officers and Sergeants? The answer is both are needed and the army would not function properly without both.

 

Now, the real question is - does this boy of 16 and you want him to serve the Scoutmaster (that is what a JASM does) or serve in a leadership position with the boys? Don't have a JASM lead the boys and don't have a troop guide, SPL, Intructor, etc. carry out Scoutmaster assignments.

If the army was Wood Badge trained (where the privates vote for new generals every six months), we'd all be speaking Arabic now.

[Kudu]

~

Kudu is not a fan of the BSA' date=' so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA ... [/quote']

"Bash the BSA" statements like that are why "servant leaders" are not to be trusted.

 

I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders...I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint.

Obviously you are the one who wants to hand pick the leader. I said to throw them all together without job titles six months before the next election, and the Natural Leader will emerge.