Pros and Cons of the Junior Assistant Scoutmaster position

[Kudu]

1) Most important: Start a cuss jar. The word "Troop" costs a dollar.

 

Apothecus, you owe $8 for your first post alone

 

2) Next on the "To Do" List: The best feature of the current Patrol Leader Handbook is the spiral binding, which allows you to tear out all the Wood Badge anti-Hillcourt disinformation!

 

So turn to Chapter 3. "Your Patrol and Your Troop" and rip out all those nasty pages:

 

Page 35 with the FAKE Baden-Powell Troop Method quote.

Page 36-37 with the Troop Organizational Charts.

Page 38 with the Troop Method six month elections.

Page 39-40 with the Troop Method "Three Types of Patrols."

Page 41-46 with ALL those pretty Troop Method patches.

 

3) To paraphrase Qwazse, what you have is a 12 Scout Patrol. So why not use Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" Method?

 

 

a) Use your cuss jar money to get a copy of Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders. About $4 on AddAll:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kw4v2a9

 

 

b) If you can trust the 16yo, have him camp his Patrol Baden-Powell's 300 feet from the adult Patrol, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Overnights (Chapter 7). Have him lead his Patrol Hikes without adult helicopters on your monthly campouts, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Hikes (Chapter 6).

 

c) Try Hillcourt's Patrol Leader course: "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol"

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

 

4) The only real way to train your future Patrol Leaders is for them to experience a "Real Patrol," and you have a rare opportunity to do so.

 

 

The "Real Patrol" Method is outdoor adventures led by your most competent Scout as Patrol Leader.

 

 

Everything else is the Troop Method.

Your operative term being "TROOP swim."

[apothecus]

After reading all the responses, there are obviously differing opinions on how to best proceed with this Scout. I do appreciate all of the advice. I plan to meet with the Scout to find out more details on his personal goals and what I can do to help support him. I am going to make sure we will put him in a position to lead and mentor the younger scouts and benefit the troop (just added another dollar to the jar, Kudu). Right now, I am leaning towards having him spend some time as a troop (there’s another buck) guide before considering JASM.

[desertrat77]

After reading all the responses, there are obviously differing opinions on how to best proceed with this Scout. I do appreciate all of the advice. I plan to meet with the Scout to find out more details on his personal goals and what I can do to help support him. I am going to make sure we will put him in a position to lead and mentor the younger scouts and benefit the troop (just added another dollar to the jar, Kudu). Right now, I am leaning towards having him spend some time as a troop (there’s another buck) guide before considering JASM.

Best wishes apothecus...even more important than particular roles/patches, is getting the scouts outdoors as often as possible. There are any number of ways to organize, but troops that grow, and stay alive, are troops that are hiking and camping.

[Stosh]

Kudu wrote: "Because in the Troop Method, Patrol Leaders are the fifth (5th) tier in leadership talent (JASM->SPL->ASPL->TG->TI->PL)."

 

I often run into others that support such a structure which is not as Kudu says, "leadership talent". What you have here is a management organizational chart of delegation. It has nothing to do with leadership. In management, the accomplishing of a task is the goal and top down delegation gets it done. This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done.

 

In my troop I simply flip this management organization chart up-side-down and have the PL at the top. He is the "highest" ranking officer in the troop. He knows what is going on with his boys and they FOLLOW him because he's doing what is best for the patrol. If he needs help or advice, he has the SPL to go to. If the SPL isn't going to help him, he's not going to FOLLOW him anywhere. If the others in the troop are of no help, the PL is on his own and will FOLLOW no one. He is only going to go to someone that can help him and if he finds that person, he'll FOLLOW him.

 

That is leadership, not management and it is all personality based, NOT task based. The task will get done by any and all who know their leader has their back and aren't going to get jerked around by some inept manager.

 

Leadership training starts and ends with. "Do what it takes to help your boys. If you do, they'll follow you anywhere!"

 

Stosh

[qwazse]

Kudu wrote: "Because in the Troop Method, Patrol Leaders are the fifth (5th) tier in leadership talent (JASM->SPL->ASPL->TG->TI->PL)."

 

I often run into others that support such a structure which is not as Kudu says, "leadership talent". What you have here is a management organizational chart of delegation. It has nothing to do with leadership. In management, the accomplishing of a task is the goal and top down delegation gets it done. This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done.

 

In my troop I simply flip this management organization chart up-side-down and have the PL at the top. He is the "highest" ranking officer in the troop. He knows what is going on with his boys and they FOLLOW him because he's doing what is best for the patrol. If he needs help or advice, he has the SPL to go to. If the SPL isn't going to help him, he's not going to FOLLOW him anywhere. If the others in the troop are of no help, the PL is on his own and will FOLLOW no one. He is only going to go to someone that can help him and if he finds that person, he'll FOLLOW him.

 

That is leadership, not management and it is all personality based, NOT task based. The task will get done by any and all who know their leader has their back and aren't going to get jerked around by some inept manager.

 

Leadership training starts and ends with. "Do what it takes to help your boys. If you do, they'll follow you anywhere!"

 

Stosh

One of my vivid scouting memories: my SPL teaching me how to restart a fire from coals. Not sure where that fits in on everyone's goofy "ladder of patches", but all I remember was I was the clueless kid who wanted the cooking to get started sooner rather than later, and he was the scout patient enough to see that I accomplished my goal. Far as I know, he never criticized the PL for not doing his job and properly supervising the fire-starting detail. He didn't employ some "Troop Instructor." (Seriously, when was that patch first issued?) He just did what he figured the most experienced guy in the troop should do.

 

As a result, I never saw SPL as some management position, but more like the troop's "oldest brother."

[Eagledad]

/

[Stosh]

Kudu wrote: "Because in the Troop Method, Patrol Leaders are the fifth (5th) tier in leadership talent (JASM->SPL->ASPL->TG->TI->PL)."

 

I often run into others that support such a structure which is not as Kudu says, "leadership talent". What you have here is a management organizational chart of delegation. It has nothing to do with leadership. In management, the accomplishing of a task is the goal and top down delegation gets it done. This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done.

 

In my troop I simply flip this management organization chart up-side-down and have the PL at the top. He is the "highest" ranking officer in the troop. He knows what is going on with his boys and they FOLLOW him because he's doing what is best for the patrol. If he needs help or advice, he has the SPL to go to. If the SPL isn't going to help him, he's not going to FOLLOW him anywhere. If the others in the troop are of no help, the PL is on his own and will FOLLOW no one. He is only going to go to someone that can help him and if he finds that person, he'll FOLLOW him.

 

That is leadership, not management and it is all personality based, NOT task based. The task will get done by any and all who know their leader has their back and aren't going to get jerked around by some inept manager.

 

Leadership training starts and ends with. "Do what it takes to help your boys. If you do, they'll follow you anywhere!"

 

Stosh

Servant Leadership really works! You and a ton of other scouts have found that out. We had a troop in our district that had a dozen or so really young scouts and just one older boy. Of course they made him the SPL. After a couple of camporees of watching the little guys follow him around as if they were all tied to him, he picked up the nickname "Mother Hen". I am sure none of those young scouts ever gave him grief, nor said no to any request the SPL may have asked. Management style scouts are the ones complaining about getting no respect and have to deal with repetitive no's when telling others to do something.

 

As far as the "ladder of patches" goes, the PL runs his patrol (patrol-method) everyone else supports him in that process and I don't care if it's an SM, SPL, TG, QM or what,... whatever it takes to make the PL successful. That's where the rubber meets the road when it comes to the patrol members.

 

Hypothetically... a PL/APL team for some reason can't be at an event, leaving 6 boys without a leader. They get together and decide to ask the ASPL if he can be the PL for the event. Sure, why not. He's the boy they have had experience with and has been helpful in the past and would be an easy choice to start asking for help. Help, help and help, all related to Servant Leadership. Who, in their right mind, would ever ask the scout with a demanding management style scout to be their temporary PL?

 

Stosh

[Stosh]

/

Well said!

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

Stupid editor. I will try again.>>This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done.

[Eagledad]

I give up. LOL

[Stosh]

I give up. LOL

Ain't technology a beautiful thing!

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

I enjoy these converstations because it gets into the meat of the program. The editor on my side is making it impossible. Sorry. Barry

[Stosh]

I give up. LOL

Let me pick up at where I think you might be going with this.

 

Yes, leadership can be completely kept out of the equation if the process is purely managerial. The SM tells the SPL to make sure everyone's area has enough water. He defines the task that needs to be done. Okay, the SPL tells the PL's to make sure their patrol has water. The PL then tells someone in his patrol to go and get the water jug filled. The boy singled out for the task, begrudgingly picks up the jug and hikes off to the water source. The task gets done, purely managing a task to be done. But the human element in the process is simply not there and the young boy learns that when he gets older things will be better because he will be able to tell younger boys what they have to do.

 

On the other hand, the SM makes the comment that he hopes everyone has water available. No directive, just a comment. The SPL picks up on it and to ease the SM's concern (helps him out) goes to each PL and asks if everyone has water. The PL, concerned that this might be a problem, asks his patrol if they have enough water, and one of the boys says, the jug is almost empty, but he'll (take the lead) on getting the boys together and they'll go get the water jug filled.

 

Or one better, one of the boys notices the jug is empty and out of concern for his buddies just up and gets the jug filled. That's the ultimate servant leader.

 

There are times when tasks are identified out of a concern for others and a comment along those lines may be made, but the servant leader willingly steps up to meet a need. Otherwise, a good servant leader probably won't even wait for any suggestions, but is constantly looking out for others and simply knocks out the tasks without any delegation necessary.

 

I have seen the benefits of this non-managerial approach taken by a few boys over the years. At Centennial Jambo we had one boy that didn't show up for the registration, but sent his money in. He didn't show up for the shakedown and I was concerned he might be a problem. But once he got there if ANYONE needed help he was there. A single boy needed to go to the latrine and his buddy wasn't around, but this boy would always go with anyone needing a buddy. This went on with every task at camp, and this boy not only helped his patrol but I saw him helping out other patrols as needed. Near the end of the week the boy twisted his ankle and the members of the troop all pitched in to make sure he got to where he needed to go, they carried him. We had a long hike back to the bus when it came time to leave, they packed him completely up and carried him and his gear to the bus. And NO ADULT or TROOP/PATROL leader even suggested they give him a hand. Lead by example! I was totally amazed with this kid and even more amazed by the influence (leadership) he was able to provide and the response he got from such leadership. By the way, he was one of the youngest boys in the contingent.

 

What I think Kudu is always emphasizing (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that top down management can leave a wake of hard feelings and promote resistance from those who get delegated upon. But if the boys see the "higher ups" as people they can look to to help them, they will follow naturally and even eagerly. Those boys that have figured out how this works are what he is calling natural leaders and I think for the most part we do not train/promote this kind of leadership, but rely more on the managerial style which tends to be less effective.

 

Stosh

[Venividi]

Kudu wrote: "Because in the Troop Method, Patrol Leaders are the fifth (5th) tier in leadership talent (JASM->SPL->ASPL->TG->TI->PL)."

 

I often run into others that support such a structure which is not as Kudu says, "leadership talent". What you have here is a management organizational chart of delegation. It has nothing to do with leadership. In management, the accomplishing of a task is the goal and top down delegation gets it done. This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done.

 

In my troop I simply flip this management organization chart up-side-down and have the PL at the top. He is the "highest" ranking officer in the troop. He knows what is going on with his boys and they FOLLOW him because he's doing what is best for the patrol. If he needs help or advice, he has the SPL to go to. If the SPL isn't going to help him, he's not going to FOLLOW him anywhere. If the others in the troop are of no help, the PL is on his own and will FOLLOW no one. He is only going to go to someone that can help him and if he finds that person, he'll FOLLOW him.

 

That is leadership, not management and it is all personality based, NOT task based. The task will get done by any and all who know their leader has their back and aren't going to get jerked around by some inept manager.

 

Leadership training starts and ends with. "Do what it takes to help your boys. If you do, they'll follow you anywhere!"

 

Stosh

jblake writes: We had a troop in our district that had a dozen or so really young scouts and just one older boy. Of course they made him the SPL. After a couple of camporees of watching the little guys follow him around as if they were all tied to him, he picked up the nickname "Mother Hen".

 

That is what I like about mixed aged patrols. It puts scouts in a situation where leadership can happen naturally, because young scouts look up to an older, experienced PL. He already has had adventures that they want to have, has skills that they envy. The PL in turn gets a feeling of self worth because he is able to share his knowledge with those that do not yet have it. It is a structure that helps foster success for leadership development (older scout), and skills development (younger scouts).

[IM_Kathy]

When the troop was much larger and did age based patrols we used Troop Guide to work with the newest patrol and we had Instructors that typically were focused on teaching just a specific skill or a few skills.

 

With the troop a bit smaller and mixed aged patrols we use JASM. The JASM basically does the same job as the guides and instructors together. Our JASM must be an Eagle or the age of 16 and they have to be approved by SM. We typically only have 1 but did have 2 until they aged out this past fall. Our JASM is the one that packs up a pack and brings it in to teach packing, sets up the axe yard and teaches the totin', basically teaches anything passed what a PL can't do. Sometimes the boys are doing something and 1 PL can teach it but another can't so the PL teaches his patrol and the JASM will teach the other patrol.

 

To me (as in my own opinion)... Guides teach how the troop functions, helps a new scout patrol have a patrol meeting and plan, helps them learn how to set up their camp area... Instructor teaches the skill(s) they are proficient with... and a JASM can do both as well as teach all of the skills needed through first class.

 

I guess it depends on what you believe his role will be now and especially in the future. I do think it would be weird to go from JASM to a different position where he'd be under someone else.